does the MMR cause autism?

Tue, Dec 13 2011, 11:15 am

[quote="CDC"]
Can vaccines cause diabetes?

No. Carefully performed scientific studies show that vaccines do not cause diabetes or increase a person’s risk of developing diabetes. In 2002, the Institute of Medicine reviewed the existing studies and released a report concluding that the scientific evidence favors rejection of the theory that immunizations cause diabetes. The only evidence suggesting a relationship between vaccination and diabetes comes from Dr. John B. Classen, who has suggested that certain vaccines if given at birth may decrease the occurrence of diabetes, whereas if initial vaccination is performed after 2 months of age the occurrence of diabetes increases. Dr. Classen's studies have a number of limitations and have not been verified by other researchers.[quote/]

Barbara

Tue, Dec 13 2011, 11:16 am

AIUI, the original theory (or an original theory) is that thimerosal in vaccines caused autism. The problem with that theory is that autism rates continued to rise in Europe and elsewhere after thimerosal was removed from vaccines. See, eg,

http://www.immunizationinfo.or.....rosal

http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.....1.htm

http://www.medpagetoday.com/Pe...../7889

Note that some autism sites attempt to debunk these studies.

The focus then turned to MMR. The Wakefield study, which is the only one that showed a connection (other than apocryphally) has been thoroughly debunked, as it was discovered that information was falsified:

http://theincidentaleconomist......raud/

Now, this angers me. Because so much time and effort was spent trying to replicate (or debunk) his findings rather than trying to figure out what really DOES trigger autism.

*Could* it be that in a certain subset of susceptible individuals, vaccinations do trigger something that results in autism? Uhhh, maybe. But maybe its HFCS in maternal diets. Or pesticides in cotton. Or pollution. Or disposable diapers. It doesn't appear that anyone knows at this time.

seeker

Tue, Dec 13 2011, 3:05 pm

Let's play fortune-teller here: If vaccines cause autism, one would predict that autism would be less prevalent among people who don't vaccinate. Fast forward: Vaccination is down, autism is up, and the rates are strikingly similar regardless of whether the child was vaccinated.

That said, I do think that autism is very complex and we still don't know at all what combination of circumstances make certain people get it. There is surely a genetic link but that is far from the whole picture. So if autism was common in my family, I would still be wary of vaccines, like Seraph.

There are other concerns about the safety of vaccines that I think warrant more investigation and caution than the autism claim.

EmesOrNT

Tue, Dec 13 2011, 4:49 pm

amother wrote:

Is there still a belief that the MMR shot can cause autism chas vshalom? Can you share your thoughts? thanks so much!

I don't know. But the idea that it's even a possibility is enough for me to skip it. I'm far less concerned about my kids getting measles, mumps, or rubella than I am about them chas v'shalom becoming autistic.

I am concerned about all vaccines in general, not just MMR. They all have risks. I don't care what the pediatricians or the CDC say. I don't trust scientific studies funded by those who have an interest in selling the drugs.

So lets see, amother. You weighed the pros and cons, and decided that the possible, unlikely, risk of autism is far worse than a probable fatal disease. You're the mother of the year.

amother

Tue, Dec 13 2011, 5:02 pm

emesornt wrote:

amother wrote:

Is there still a belief that the MMR shot can cause autism chas vshalom? Can you share your thoughts? thanks so much!

So lets see, amother. You weighed the pros and cons, and decided that the possible, unlikely, risk of autism is far worse than a probable fatal disease. You're the mother of the year.

In my parents' generation those diseases were like Chicken Pox. People got them and lived to tell. I don't know anyone who has had those diseases lately, let alone died of those diseases, but I do know plenty of kids with autism. You may disagree with my logic. I don't care. But your sarcasm and nastiness is really unwarranted!

tikva18

Tue, Dec 13 2011, 5:14 pm

IMO I don't think it can be as clear cut as that. I don't think one can pin autism on one vaccine - as much as that would be neat and tidy. I think that some people are higher risk for autism or other disorders and that they are sensitive to vaccine ingredients. Not everyone is that sensitive, so not everyone will come up with issues. I think vaccines are not safe for everyone and each person should make an informed decision based on their family's genetic and physical/medical history.

In our case, I am delaying the MMR until my twins turn 8 - or something convinces me to change my mind and not vaccinate them for it at all.

My older boys had issues, I believe caused by vaccines. I can't get a medical exemption so I've gotten a religious exemption and spaced out vaccinating my twins.

I won't tell someone not to vaccinate; that's not for me to decide. I can, however, encourage education and studying both sides of the vaccine issue is what is needed - as well as, knowing what to do in case, G-d forbid, one would get sick. Further, if one is to not vaccinate then they need to eat a very healthful diet - limit processed foods, no food coloring, no artificial sweeteners, etc.

I'm not posting for debate, but to offer my opinion.

tikva18

Tue, Dec 13 2011, 5:19 pm

amother wrote:

emesornt wrote:

amother wrote:

Is there still a belief that the MMR shot can cause autism chas vshalom? Can you share your thoughts? thanks so much!

So lets see, amother. You weighed the pros and cons, and decided that the possible, unlikely, risk of autism is far worse than a probable fatal disease. You're the mother of the year.

Agreed, that the sarcasm is unwarranted. Disagree that these diseases aren't around today. My brother had measles when I was in college; I was the one to take care of him - as my parents were 'busy'. Measles is around today, I've heard of mumps cases as well.

tikva18

Tue, Dec 13 2011, 5:20 pm

Seraph wrote:

punchike wrote:

Amother 1:08,

how would one know if someone is chas vshaom predisposed to it?

If its in your genes, you'd chas veshalom be predisposed to it.

Personally, I can't know 100% either way, but since 4 out of my 7 immediate family members are on the autism spectrum, I'm not chancing giving my kids the MMR. Even if I'm being far fetched and have no proof for it.
I just know that if I did give my kids the MMR and then they developed autism, I'd never be able to forgive myself.

and that's why I haven't done it yet. I wouldn't be able to forgive myself after seeing issues in my older kids.

amother

Tue, Dec 13 2011, 5:24 pm

tikva18 wrote:

amother wrote:

emesornt wrote:

amother wrote:

Is there still a belief that the MMR shot can cause autism chas vshalom? Can you share your thoughts? thanks so much!

So lets see, amother. You weighed the pros and cons, and decided that the possible, unlikely, risk of autism is far worse than a probable fatal disease. You're the mother of the year.

Yes, I do hear in the news of a couple cases here and there every few years. But considering the whole population, I think I can say it's extremely rare. And also not fatal in otherwise healthy individuals who have good nutrition and live in sanitary conditions.

tikva18

Tue, Dec 13 2011, 5:26 pm

amother wrote:

tikva18 wrote:

amother wrote:

emesornt wrote:

amother wrote:

Is there still a belief that the MMR shot can cause autism chas vshalom? Can you share your thoughts? thanks so much!

So lets see, amother. You weighed the pros and cons, and decided that the possible, unlikely, risk of autism is far worse than a probable fatal disease. You're the mother of the year.

Well, I can guarantee that my brother and I were raised in the best conditions in an upper class type household. There was a measles epidemic and they wanted everyone over the age of 18 to be revaxed - I was in my early 20s and my brother was 17 - he got the measles.

Chana Miriam S

Tue, Dec 13 2011, 6:14 pm

Wow. So I read this whole thread and have this to say.

I remember when the study in question came out. right around the time my kid, now almost 16 was diagnosed. I remember the senate committee hearings. I was scared and horrified that I could potentially have caused my child's diagnosis.

Later, I learned that not only had the theory been debunked, but that it had been fraudulent. Don't get me wrong. It's not like I don't think some people have reactions to things that others do not- heck, I just found out I am allergic to kasha. My cousin Nathan had a horrible reaction to a flu shot. Hospital for two weeks reaction ( and he was an adult.) I had none to that particular flu shot.

I think that people who obsess about things like this are looking for a reason that was in their control. Never mind that x out of x people in your family are on the spectrum (our credentials include rampant ocd, dyslexia and numerous spectrum dx in both close and distant relatives.) It was the luck of the draw that gave us our kid on the spectrum and I also harbour a fear that it might have been when once I used a weed killer unthinkingly while I was expecting. Never mind why it happened. I don't really believe with our family history that it was anything other than good old genetics.

I also know that we were friends with the Chmura's who are one of the families who sued somebody or other over the fact that their kid might have had autism as a result of the vaccines. They dropped the law suit when there was no evidence to back it up.

We did delay vaccines for our second child, but only until it was clear that she was developing typically . We gave them to her on a delayed schedule but not so delayed that it was crazy, just delayed enough to try and avoid causing problems if there was a link. There wasn't and at the time that was a healthy fear. I don't believe that it is any longer a healthy fear. Unless you believe that children with Autism should not be vaccinated so that maybe they will catch whatever you are not vaccinating for and stop being a problem for you. Worse yet, what about when your normally developing children catch whatever you are not vaccinating for? What if it is fatal? Children DO die of chicken pox. And the flu and mmr. and you know what? if your kids have rubella while they are pregnant or while their spouses who are also not vaccinated are, then that is a whole other world of hurt.

Take it from someone who does have a kid on the autism spectrum. everything in life is a balance. medication, non medication, what type of education., vaccination is just another one of those decisions, but hopefully one which is being made intelligently and not with half axed information or a 'feeling.' You will feel your way right to a fatal something if you care not about reality.

How my kid got on the spectrum is irrelevent. What is relevant is what I do going forward. You know what? he gets flu shots. so does my 'normal' kid. You know why? because the odds are far greater that they will die from influenze than from the shot that prevents it. I have done my homework and I have nothing to apologize for. oh and if there was a drug that took away my son's autism, I would not decide for him if he would take it. I like him the way he is and he has many gifts because of it. it would totally be his choice.

EmesOrNT

Tue, Dec 13 2011, 7:33 pm

amother wrote:

tikva18 wrote:

amother wrote:

emesornt wrote:

amother wrote:

Is there still a belief that the MMR shot can cause autism chas vshalom? Can you share your thoughts? thanks so much!

So lets see, amother. You weighed the pros and cons, and decided that the possible, unlikely, risk of autism is far worse than a probable fatal disease. You're the mother of the year.

Here and there? Way more often as of late, due to ppl who choose not to vaccinate. And maybe it's rare for it to be fatal (although not unheard of) there are plenty of unfortunate boys and men who's little swimmers were burned by the mumps epidemic we had a few years back. I guess they don't count. Oh, and Patient Zero of that mumps epidemic? A little boy who came to camp from Europe, where they are more lax about vaccinating. He hadn't gotten the vaccine, and thanks to his mother, future generations have been destroyed.

seeker

Tue, Dec 13 2011, 7:57 pm

amother wrote:

1. I'm not sure what you consider "extremely rare" but the cases number in the tens in most outbreaks that make the news.
2. As rare as it's been in the past, it is getting less rare every year. It correlates very well with the decrease in vaccinations. You can say correlation doesn't prove causation, but the highest rates of disease are appearing in areas with the lowest rates of vaccination. It's pretty compelling evidence.
3. You add your own caveat that's it's not often fatal IN OTHERWISE HEALTHY INDIVIDUALS. What about all the people in your community or area who are not in perfect health? Bringing back these diseases exposes them to unnecessary risk. Vaccination is not 100% effective or even possible for everyone, so the program relies on mass cooperation to keep the diseases under control for everyone's sake.