Vaccination Brain Picking Question

suzyq

Fri, May 31 2013, 6:37 am

I just want to again suggest reading Dr. Sear's Vaccine Book - I found it to be very informative and helpful. I do vaccinate my son, but I do it on a alternative schedule because I think too many vaccines at once are just not healthy. I also pick and choose a few of the vaccines to give based on risk factors of getting the disease vs. the vaccine. Ultimately, it's your decision, but I would make sure it's as informed a decision as it can be.

Cookies n Cream

Fri, May 31 2013, 6:51 am

yogabird wrote:

Am I the only who doesn't think its the end of the world if my kids getting the measles?

Do your kids live in a bubble?
Because if they do, then chances are it's not the end of the world...however since they most likely go to school and are exposed to other kids with weakened immune systems or children that cannot get vaccinated for a variety of reasons, then yes it can be a problem if your kids get the measles.
What if they get the measles when you are pregnant? There was a miscarriage associated with this outbreak.

rydys

Fri, May 31 2013, 6:54 am

yogabird wrote:

Am I the only who doesn't think its the end of the world if my kids getting the measles?

That is a choice you have to make. However, if you do make that choice, please be responsible for it. If there is any chance that your child was exposed, keep them isolated for the required 21 days until you are sure they are not contagious.

In the current outbreak, the only people who got measles have been those who chose not to vaccinate, and those who were too young to have been vaccinated. The decision of the index family not to vaccinate did not only affect their family, it affected many more as well. We do not live in isolation and all must take responsibility for how our actions will impact others.

mandr

Fri, May 31 2013, 7:15 am

SJcookie wrote:

That disease spread because ONE kid wasn't vaccinated. That kid visited a grocery store. Hundreds of mothers who visited the supermarket that day had to worry about their babies who did not yet receive the measles vaccination.
Irresponsible and very upsetting.

Exactly. And not only was the kid in a grocery, but in a health food/vitamins store (think pregnant women) and a toy store (think little kids). Could you imagine how many people were exposed? I for one had a very big scare because I was in the health food store a day later (I thought it was that Monday), and I'm pregnant.

GreenEyes26

Fri, May 31 2013, 7:28 am

I've said it once and I'll say it again: parents who don't vax their children should be charged with criminal negligence. They are wrong. Period. Full stop. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. It is the height of selfishness, pigheadedness, and misinformed arrogance. I don't care what crackpot research you've done. You haven't been to medical school, you aren't medically trained, and to ignore the hundreds of sound medical studies and across the board guidelines to vax your kids because "you know better"....well. I can't call you what I'd like to on this board, but it rhymes with pucking shmidiot.

Last edited by GreenEyes26 on Fri, May 31 2013, 7:35 am; edited 1 time in total

Marion

Fri, May 31 2013, 7:35 am

GreenEyes26 wrote:

I've said it once and I'll say it again: parents who don't vac their children should be charged with criminal negligence. They are wrong. Period. Full stop. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. It is the height of selfishness, pigheadedness, and misinformed arrogance. I don't care what crackpot research you've done. You haven't been to medical school, you aren't medically trained, and to ignore the hundreds of sound medical studies and across the board guidelines to vax your kids because "you know better"....well. U can't call you what I'd like to on this board but it rhymes with pucking shmidiot.

Well, I'm glad you don't make the rules. My kids get most of the recommended vaccines, but not all of them. I don't give the chicken pox vaccine (and they've all had the virus now; of the 3 who had it only two passed it along to classmates, and both those classmates had been vaccinated). And I didn't give Rotavirus this time (it wasn't offered to previous children). But the "big" ones (DTaP, MMR, and one other one) they get. They get HepB because it's not the hill I want to die on and it's comparatively harmless.

Frankly, the vaccines themselves don't much bother me, but the junk they store them in does!

21young

Fri, May 31 2013, 7:38 am

To the OP, every single thing you read will be biased in some direction. People who are pro-vax will tell you to read articles that have a pro-vax slant, and people who are anti-vax will tell you to read articles with an anti-vax slant. I, personally, am vary pro-vaccines, but the only advice I can give you is to speak to your pediatrician and try to make the decision based on your gut and his recommendations. Nobody else can help you with this.

rydys

Fri, May 31 2013, 7:43 am

mandr wrote:

SJcookie wrote:

Also, any baby under 6 months who was exposed had to receive an immunoglobulin injection. Ig is a blood product and the risk of exposure to Ig is much greater than the risk from the MMR. So one person not vaccinating has now caused hundreds of people to be exposed to a potentially fatal illness and tens of babies to have to receive a medication which has more risk than just the MMR.

So you see, choosing not to vaccinate is not just a personal decision. It impacts the klal.

Think of it like smoking. If I choose to smoke, that is a personal decision. However, if I smoke in a public area, I have now exposed many more people to the toxins. I have removed their freedom of choice NOT to be exposed to cigarete smoke. My choice has impacted the klal. If one person develops lung cancer due to my second hand smoke, I'm sure there will be some kind of cheshbon in shamayim for it.

Measles and several other vaccine preventable diseases are airborne. If a person chooses not to vaccinate and another child suffers from this I'm sure there is some kind of cheshbon for that as well.

As has been mentioned above, we live in a community and need to consider not only our own needs, but how that will affect the klal.

tissues

Fri, May 31 2013, 9:27 am

But in yiddishkeit there is a klal of "chayecha kodmim", my life comes first. I am obligated to consider my health first before the klal. So if I come to the decision not to vaccinate - not out of laziness, but out of a concern for MY health - I am fulfilling my obligation.

However, I will not disregard the health of others and therefore, if I know I was exposed (or if it was my child) I will keep stay away from others.

rydys

Fri, May 31 2013, 10:10 am

tissues wrote:

Chayecha Kodmin has very specific applications and does not apply in general. The gemara it is based on refers to 2 people in a desert with only enough water for one to survive. The question is, should the water be shared and both die, or should the one who has the water drink it and one will die and one will survive. In that case, chayecha kodmin--the one who has the water should drink it even though the other one will die.

This is not the same as vaccination. The risks from vaccination are very low, but the risks of not vaccinating are much higher. It is not a matter of choosing who will die. The problem today is that we do not see these diseases so much, thanks to vaccines. People don't know today what it was like when they were around. Before measles vaccine, there were thousands of children a year who died from the disease and even more with permanent damage from it. Yes, there was a slight decrease in the numbers due to improved hygiene, but the dramatic drop in numbers from one year to the next was from the introduction to the vaccine.

Again, chayecha kodmin refers to a situation where if I do "A", both of us will suffer but if I do "B" only you will suffer. However, act "B" does not directly cause you to suffer. By not vaccinating, you are not only impacting yourself, you are putting others at risk by possibly exposing them to dangerous diseases. You could be exposed to measles without knowing it and pass it on before getting symptoms. You are not simply a "shev v'al taaseh" and the result is that the other person might suffer, you are actively killing them and this is not mutar.

To explain it using the original gemara, there is a difference between one person drinking all the water, and one person drinking all the water and shooting the other person.

GreenEyes26

Fri, May 31 2013, 10:10 am

tissues wrote:

mandr wrote:

yogabird wrote:

Am I the only who doesn't think its the end of the world if my kids getting the measles?

Ask your kids, you're not the one experiencing it.

Do you ask your kids before you vaccinate them? They're the ones experiencing it.

When a person is in a frame mind that would even consider a painful and uncomfortable sickness (with a whole host of possible serious, long-term effects, btw) to the minuscule risk and momentary discomfort of the shot invented to prevent it...well there's nothing to say to rise them up from their well of self-righteous delusion.