Chinuch issues with making Aliya

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Imaonwheels

Mon, May 12 2008, 2:36 am

Oh, and this is article carries the same condescending attitude as One Above, Seven below, the book I mentioned in another thread. Lets take my particular vision of charedi, my small particular group and call it charedi and exclude all others.

If I believe everyone should be in kollel then people who have no problem with their sons working are not chareidi. If they don't learn in x,y,z yeshiva they are not going to get a quality shidduch. What is a quality shidduch? A girl with good midos and yiras shamayim? No, its a girl who learned in x,y,z seminar and whose father is willing to pay whether he has the money or will have a heart attack at 40 repaying gemachim.

This is NOT Israeli chareidi society. This is the worst attitudes of a small section of Israeli society. These are also the rabbonim that tell you to live here 10 years without becoming citizens, work under the table and give birth in chutz. Rav Hollandar once said that the Aguda is a movement that reacts as opposed to leading. They have to see what the Mizrachi is for before they know what to be against. Aliya is one of those things.

It will be nice to see you people from Anglo countries. You will meet plenty of compatriots in nearly every frum community, from your old city or the other side of the world. There are a wide variety of chinuch options and every family who does not have their own dreams of all of their kids fitting into round holes only will find the right school for their square peg.

mimivan

Mon, May 12 2008, 3:58 am

Imaonwheels points are worth mulling over. It is definitely worth a second look after I have had time to actually read the article embarrassed

so I am just commented on above posts, and when I have read it, I may add my 2 cents later...

In general, I am kind of uneasy with insisting on kids retaining their Anglo identity unless they made aliyah older and want to be Americans. I know some American parents who literally cry because their children speak English with an Israeli accent. I guess we each have our own tzaros but that isn't mine. I have a son who doesn't even speak English (speech delay necessitated only one language in the home) and my one dream for my kids is they will find their place here in Eretz Yisroel... (at least among those with Yirat Shamayim...of course my first priority is that he should fit with Israeli Chabad Chassidim but now he goes to a regular chareidi school and b'h is doing well.

Learning English, fitting in with Americans, keeping his Anglo identity are things I would absolutely be willing to sacrifice if they come in conflict to his fitting here. This infuriates my mother to no end, but I know I am making the right choice. My oldest has enough to deal with without my pushing him to be bi-cultural.

I have to say, I am not so well- integrated myself in Israeli society. My neighborhood is Israeli, and I am the sole Anglo. The obstacles come from both sides. They aren't entirely to blame for not embracing Anglos 100% and I am not entirely blame for having little spare time to improve my Hebrew (although Imust try harder)...

This might mean that there might be a growing cultural gulf between me and my kids and I know that. But I want my kids fit in as Israeli Hareidim first, and I am willing to give up a bit of my home comforts for this..

In the meantime, I think I need more Hebrew lessons!

ora_43

Mon, May 12 2008, 4:27 am

I know several families who succesfully integrated with kids between ages 9-18, but they did it in areas that weren't hareidi. What I don't understand is why joining a torani community isn't even considered. If a yeshivish family from the states is looking for a place where kids can wear different colors of shirt, can decide between work and kollel without being judged for either choice, can play sports with friends, etc, we have that here--it's just not called "hareidi." So what, why should the label matter?

Honestly I think the problem is with families who are looking for a very, very particular hashkafa and demand a community with the same. For example, they want a community where guys can wear a blue shirt, but not so "modern" that girls can wear jeans skirts--things like that.

I agree with Imaonwheels that the "punishments" of not fitting in are really not punishments. So your american-born child might find that all his/her shidduch offers are with sephardim or non-kollel types or guys who were once "off the derech"--what's the problem? Again the problem is only if you want things both ways, ie, a society that won't judge your kid for watching sports but will judge his potential wife for having a non-hareidi brother.

In general, I think families should only make aliya with kids of a certain age if the kids have some familiarity with Israel and agree to come (or at the very least, aren't too strongly opposed). While I think the most important thing for younger kids is to learn Hebrew and adjust to Israeli society, older kids often need a more anglo setting. The families I know who made aliya successfully with teens came to places like Beit Shemesh (not Ramat Beit Shemesh), Jerusalem, and Beit El.

When coming to an anglo community you have to be careful though--you can end up with native Israeli kids or kids who made aliya at a very young age who still face some of the language barriers of new olim. I know someone who has an American accent even though she only ever went to school in Israel, just because there was no need to speak Hebrew until she was about 14 years old. Also as others have said you have to avoid the us/them mentality, way too many American parents make frequent derogatory comments about "Israelis" or "Israeli chutzpa" and the like.

Tamiri

Mon, May 12 2008, 8:32 am

My parents came whole-heartedly to Israel and left nothing behind to bring them back to the U.S. However, it was very hard for them - mostly my mother - to let go of things American. This mixed me up. I thought American is the best, that I was taken away from what we look up to but at the same time was brought to the place we need to be. I was both integrated into Israeli society while reading just American books. The culture, though I was growing into it, was not always favorably looked upon. So how does that work: we need to be here, it's fabulous there... which way is the right way?
Anyway, I got over the mix-up by going over there myself and seeing that what my parents knew and remembered did not, in fact, exist anymore (if it every had).
My point is that it's imperative to get a clear message across to your children, no matter what the age: we are here because it's our land, and it's the best for us and our souls (no one mentioned souls in regards to the U.S.). We can get by fine with all things Israeli, be it shoes, clothing or chocolate chips. This is where we are to stay.
I think this message is good for whatever zerem you belong to.

Imaonwheels

Mon, May 12 2008, 5:28 pm

Also, if you are planning aliya include the kids from day one in your ideals, excitement. My dd was only 6 mos old when we arrived and I never spoke to her in English when alone with her from the day she was born. There was no doubt about aliya and it was a deal breaker from the moment I became interested in dating. Of course, my boys were born here and we speak Hebrew in the house all of the time.

My nephew was brought to us at age 6 and he just turned 15. His adjustment has been difficulted, but obviously for personal and not aliya reasons. His father just visited him for the first time in nine years. They were strangers. The father tried hard to convince him to leave us and Israel to live a frei life among non jews in the states. A lot more freedom at an age where he wishes we would give it to him. He said he would want to visit only if he can come back. He is Israeli through and through.

All teenagers go on a journey uniquely their own at some point and part of that is testing the world outside of what they were taught at home and school. The length of this little journey and how far from home they get depends on us. If we gave uncompromising values in important issues, were good examples and come from a place of what is good for them as opposed to what we want or what people will say then the worse they will do is maybe join another hashkafa. Big deal. I have a Lityvishe dd and a DL ds. They fit in with the rest of us, who are Chabad without problem. They also don't spit into the well they drank from. They show highest respect to the Rebbe and their brothers' minhagim.

I have been a mashpia to teenagers and it is obvious that the touchy feely walking on eggshells is causing more of them to go off than strictness. The kids want to do the right thing. If their parents are sure then they will follow them, if the parents are not consistant or wishy washy they will look for someone who is sure in his derech. There is no promise that person will be someone we want influencing our children.

Imaonwheels

Mon, May 12 2008, 5:50 pm

And Ora, as a chareidi who lives in a mixed Torani community it is not easy and I don't think I would do it over again if possible.
Here are the problems:
1. The most Torani communities I have seen do not forbid mixed projects or socializing. For a long time the madrich for the boys here was under the comunarit of the snif.
2. Peer pressure to yes do army or sherut leumi.
3. Allowing any missed learning time at all for things like demonstration. Politics in the school system.
4, Talmud Torah, yeshiva katana and kollel are frowned on as much as school, yeshiva tichonit, army or sherut and working are in some charedi circles.
5. There are many hashkafa differences. The need to learn Eretz Israel, which is already ingrained, hard wired in yishuv kids instead of working on the weaker areas like tznius, derech eretz, tzitzit, learning and c"v yirat shamayim.
6. The prominence of the snif which puts gibush chevrati above gibush mishpachti. My dd was our first madricha in Ariel in our yishuv. They had to do all kinds of political stuff but she was not allowed to make any peulot discussing tzniut or other specific mitzvah.
7. The Torani schools don't really want charedim. My ds was told by a teacher in Elon More, "We don't want dosim here". Kids and teachers have always made my kids feel like outsiders because they sometimes dress differently and go to different schools. Another of my sons was punished for being the only kid in the yishuv in the cheder (and having one of the parents who started it) by being denied marching in a yishuv parade when he was only 3. The only kid not allowed.

The truth is that the Torani communities are very tolerant and patient with those weaker but have a very low tolerance for those who are charedi. In fact, out of ignorance I always berated myself that we are closed and insular until I went to the yishuv. Then I learned that some shtarker DL are more closed than Satmar. A few royal families married to each other. The school problem is exactly the same as for charedim. A kid may want more Torah, more spirituality but there is no school for him because it is more important that the school be mamad than the right school for my kids.

chavamom

Mon, May 12 2008, 8:17 pm

ora_43 wrote:

I agree with Imaonwheels that the "punishments" of not fitting in are really not punishments. So your american-born child might find that all his/her shidduch offers are with sephardim or non-kollel types or guys who were once "off the derech"--what's the problem? Again the problem is only if you want things both ways, ie, a society that won't judge your kid for watching sports but will judge his potential wife for having a non-hareidi brother.

Who said that the "punishment" is that charedim won't marry in with your kids? There is a MUCH bigger problem that when Anglos are trying to fit into charedi society that the society at large treats them as if they are "not frum". Your kid follows baseball? How about PLAYS baseball? Shoot, we were even told if our 8 year-old collected baseball cards! Forget it. They might as well be frei b/c that is how society views them. And the problem is that the kids absorb the idea that they are frei, so they might as well go all the way. And Imaonwheels, you of all people should know that the parents can reject all they want. Teenagers, and to a lesser degree pre-teens, that are accustomed to a certain lifestyle ideas that are very normal in most US communities are not going to drop them so fast just b/c their parents moved to Israel. This is NOT about "keeping their English to a certain standard".

chaylizi

Mon, May 12 2008, 8:22 pm

Motek wrote:

I found the quote from Rabbi Nachman Bulman a'h very interesting, that the time for families to come to Eretz Yisrael is either before the children or born or after they're married.

Rabbi Orlowek tells parents that if they bring children over the age of 6-7 they are taking a big chance!

I have also heard this. that one should come before the kids are school age or after they are grown. it does work for many people though. oh the other hand I've personally met kids whose families made aliya & they were absolutely miserable.

chaylizi

Mon, May 12 2008, 8:33 pm

in my community- it is ,not very accepted to wear loud shorts (& those are only allowed for young boys- until 4th grade only), the boys here do not follow sports as a whole & the girls definitely don't ride bicycles past preschool. & none of these things would be a reason to not move to eretz yisroel. maybe if the people in e"y would stop shouting at us about how evil we are for living in chul- we would consider it. who wants to live with a group of people who look down on you? I would prefer to live a life of torah & yiddishkeit in my quiet oot community where people appreciate each other & don't play the I'm frummer than you game.

Imaonwheels

Tue, May 13 2008, 12:28 am

CM, you say EVEN baseball cards. Thats what I meant . Play the game, enjoy it, and many chedarim will have no problem. I definitely took away the soccer cards from my kids and complained tothe school that they got them there. It is one thing to have fun and excersize. It is quite another to keep the pictures of all of the players and make them heroes. This is not what a frum kid should be wasting his time with..

chavamom

Tue, May 13 2008, 1:00 am

Imaonwheels wrote:

I'm saying that once a kid who lives in chul where such a thing is accepted moves to Israel, it's not so easy to discard the notion. I live in a community with little problem with baseball cards, an evening at the baseball game is "kosher" entertainment, bicycles are the norm for boys and girls (as are roller skates and scooters - even for bigger kids)... and on and on. You can take the kid out of galus, but to take that mentality out of a kid is a real kuntz.

chavamom

Tue, May 13 2008, 1:02 am

Oh, and btw - I was told the above quote about when to move back to Israel from R. Orlowek himself. I have a friend who got the same advice, ignored it and 3 out of her 6 kids are off the derech. The irony is that it is the 3 kids who were little when they moved there and the three who were teens/preteens are fine!!!!

Tamiri

Tue, May 13 2008, 1:38 am

I will not deny that religious issues arise in many families who made Aliya. BUT: who is to know what would have happened if they had remained in chu"l? Let's be honest: there are many organizations set up to meet the issues of kids who are lost - right in the U.S.!!!!
I know plenty of families where the kids are totally off the derech, and also married "out" and they never lived in Israel.
There is no proof in this pudding, there is only anecdotal evidence.
Part of the problem is parents not being on top of things when it comes to their making Aliya with children, because the whole process is so overwhelming.

chavamom

Tue, May 13 2008, 1:52 am

I think you can compare numbers and it does seem to be that not only are there a higher percentage of kids who go "off" from "Anglo" families, there are a large number of the kids who return to the US first chance they get.

Btw - I'm an American yored, so I have a large amount of experience with the phenomena. And for the record, I wanted to go back! But I totally see why we were advised not to after seeing what is going on with MANY families I know there. I do agree that it is not nearly the issue in Dati Leumi circles.

Imaonwheels

Tue, May 13 2008, 3:04 am

I think the reason is that people do not understand the Israeli boxes. The American frum community has boxes as well. They are just so used to them that they don't

I've been here so long and am so unattached to the American way of life that I for all intents and purposes am Israeli. I hear the terms yeshivish, modern and that is not the dividers here. The dividers in Israel for the most part on actual differences in psika and hashkafa. So you have the young couples in Har Nof, Tel Tzion and such who are Charedi, wear jean skirts (but almost always BY length), long sheitels and are into labels, cosmetics and stuff because they are young. And when yingele turns 3 they enroll him in the cheder thattheir rav or the dh's RY tells them to. They've been there and they have accomodated. When they are 30 they will have several kids and look like the rest of the frumies in snoods and models coats. They will support the no Jeans policy in their dd's BY. They don't take it seriously as Torah miSinai. They know it is only school policy. The same with their boys. Pick your battles without getting all worked up. And their children go off less.

Then you have some Anglo parents (I know, not all) but I know many of these and they all have kids on a lower level than themselves or off. These are the people who have cartons of English books for their kids in their lift, they send to American schools or gan or cry because they can't. They try to change the entire Israeli system to make it what they think is "normal". They visit the states as often as possible and imagine in their heart that their kids will marry the children of other Anglo parents. It takes the parents an inordinate amount of time to learn Hebrew because the non thinking counselor at the sochnut or NBN gave the stock advice that consistently does not - go to an Anglo ghetto. ANd when dd is 16 she spends summers with Bubby and counseling in an American camp.

Their child is learning Mishna with Bartenoro in 3rd grade with no need for teiching and is preparing for Gemora and that achievement is lost because the arithmetic is not taught the American way. His Rebbe is proud of him but Mommy and her friends are full of complaints.

I don't think this should surprise anyone, but Israeli school hanhalot HATE Anglo parents. It's not because your not frum, they know you are. I work with hanhalot and I think this subject comes up often in meeting menahelim beause I work with them and they are surprised that I, an Anglo, agree with them.

Do you know how kids feel when it is always their Mom and her friends who are always calling and trying to tell the staff how to run the school. Russian parents aren't always happy either, but they add to their child what they think needs added without bothering the school. It is the parents who push this whole individuality as holy. HaShem knows I am individual but I don't write it on a sign and stick it up others' noses.

Many Anglo have no idea that parents and hanhalot have different responsibilities in chinuch. They think hat it is the parents responsibility to determine curriculum and school policy. Oy to the schools that buy into that one. Parents change every year, ever heard of stability?

And why are parents in chutz not able to set limits on the non jewish culture? Because if Mommy is addicted to Harry Potter than baseball cards are small change. At least the hero of the baseball cards is not doing something that the Torah strongly condemns.

I think the Jewish Observer should write and article examining why Anglo Jews are so incompatible with their frum brethern from the rest of the world. I would like to propose the same chauvenism that considers great thinkers from non western cultures primitive and if you don't understand English they speak louder or use baby talk.

ora_43

Tue, May 13 2008, 4:02 am

chaylizi wrote:

maybe if the people in e"y would stop shouting at us about how evil we are for living in chul- we would consider it. who wants to live with a group of people who look down on you?

who's calling you "evil"? I don't see anyone here doing that.

If you're planning to wait until everyone in Israel accepts living elsewhere as being just as good that's not going to happen, but IMO it's a chaval to let that get in your way. Of course we think it's best to be in Israel, that's why we're here, it doesnt' mean thinking everyone who isnt' here is "evil" or looking down.

ora_43

Tue, May 13 2008, 4:12 am

Imaonwheels--
I see what you're saying about torani communities, although it seems to me that you're coming from the perspective of someone who could have fit in with the hareidi world (you're willing to accept the school's rules, don't see a ban on sports cards as ridiculous, etc), not as someone whose primary concern is that her kids will be seen as "frei." Also, I wasn't thinking of torani communities as a great place to live if you plan to stay hareidi/chassidic. They're good for parents who don't feel their family is ready to give up bike riding, sports cards, etc, AND who are willing to change their own identity somewhat to fit in to the yishuv (which you have to do in any community).

I wouldn't call any community that looks down on kollel learning "Torani." Dati leumi, maybe.

IMO each of the three major options--Israeli hareidi, Israeli torani, American yeshivish--out there for yeshivish parents has its downside. If kids just aren't ready to go into the Israeli hareidi system and would find it stifling, it could be that despite the downsides of torani, torani is still the best option.

Miriam770

Tue, May 13 2008, 4:15 am

I live in Israel... and I'm Oleh Chadash too... I have 3 kids... I'm not American but I can add to this forum that non american inmigrants feel the same. I think is the system... We are dealing with a lot of problems here... in Israel... Sad

ChossidMom

Tue, May 13 2008, 5:49 am

Ora, what's a Torani community? CAn you define it for me?
Can you give me a few examples please?
Thanks

amother

Tue, May 13 2008, 6:12 am

Quote:

And why are parents in chutz not able to set limits on the non jewish culture? Because if Mommy is addicted to Harry Potter than baseball cards are small change. At least the hero of the baseball cards is not doing something that the Torah strongly condemns.

Just as you judge others and look down, so too others will judge you and look down. Harry Potter is not frum society's biggest problem.

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