Asking Cleaning Lady to pay for Damages

OOTforlife

Wed, Jun 13 2012, 9:25 pm

allrgymama wrote:

What I'm trying to figure out is if there is a difference between an employee that gets paid to earn her employer money (like most office jobs) and a cleaning lady.

There are plenty of office jobs that, like your cleaning lady, are support functions and do not earn the employer any money. Legal, compliance, accounting, and so on do not earn money, they cost money. They enable the company to continue earning money just like a cleaning lady or sitter enables one or both of her employers to earn money, but they themselves do not bring any revenue. But I don't think you would say that the human resources manager who breaks a company computer must pay for it while a manufacturing engineer should not have to under the same circumstances.

Edit to add: I've never had a cleaning lady. But I would not ask her to pay for things damaged in the normal course of doing her job, even if there was some negligence. The only way I can imagine demanding her to pay is if there was some kind of real misbehavior involved. Like if she ran up my phone bill calling 900 numbers or got drunk and smashed up stuff or threw a party at my house while I was gone that caused damage.

Last edited by OOTforlife on Wed, Jun 13 2012, 9:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

Tova

Wed, Jun 13 2012, 9:26 pm

morah wrote:

In OP's defense, it sounded like there was some pretty serious negligence involved. Yes, accidents happen. That's why it would be wrong to ask her to pay for say, a dish that slipped from her hand while washing dishes, or something that broke or got scuffed up when she knocked it over. But forcing a piece into something until it's bent out of shape? You can't file that under "accidents happen". If the piece wasn't fitting, she should have gone to OP and said "I can't get it to fit, can you show me how?" That's what mine did when she was changing the vacuum bag and it wasn't clicking into place. That's the reasonable thing to do in that situation. Instead, this woman decided to make it fit and caused damage, which she didn't even inform her employer about. OP was justified in asking for some compensation. Now, out of rachmanus, don't ask her to give a up a full day's pay at once. But to maybe ask her to give up say $5 per week until it's paid up seems reasonable to me.

Please please please don't.
I disagree with this post. BTW, has anyone ever considered that the OP is not as approachable to the cleaning lady as she thinks she is (no offense to you, OP, really, I don't know you) to ask questions to? I have a partner in my office that would swear that he is approachable but I have to take deep breaths before entering his office (and I am not alone in feeling intimidated). He was very surprised to hear this from me - best thing about me switching departments at work is that I can now say what's on my mind! Not that it's any excuse to break things, of course, but I could picture a scenario where this could happen.

amother

Wed, Jun 13 2012, 9:37 pm

I had a situation this week. My husband's suit got ruined while bringing bleach in from the car. The bleach wasnt sealed properly so the bleach company said to pour out the bleach and mail them them the empty bottle for analysing. Then they's probably reimburse the cost of the suit. I told my cleaning lady to pour the bleach from the new bottle into the old bottle and very clearly told her to save the bottle. My husband was nearby and heard me say this to her. Well.... she very kindly poured over the bleach but threw out the bottle and now the company won't reimburse us. It was obviously upsetting, a new suit costs 200$... that's part of having a cleaning lady.
Another time she mistakingly threw out a becher, she never stole before so I couldn't figure out what happened, it had fallen in to the garbage near the sink, luckily I found it. There are quite a few times over the years where she has done stupid mistakes that really annoy me, but I'd never charge her. If she did it on purpose then I'd fire her. Many ppl I know don't trust the cleaning lady with their silver.
If you want highclass cleaning you get your silver cleaned in the silver store and u can blame a silver store for ruining your silver.

allrgymama

Wed, Jun 13 2012, 9:37 pm

But I ultimately didn't force her to pay. I assumed that was a normal thing to ask a cleaning lady to do and I asked. I asked her if she wanted it all out at once or a little at a time. She's insisting on bringing me all the money at once tomorrow.

As far as being approachable goes, she's come to me for help before. The other week she had a problem with the vaccum, askedfor help, and I helped. I always tell her to help herselfto drinks and snacks and she does. I talk to her about my kids and vice versa and explain things to her that she doesn't understand.

And there is no way that she could not have noticed the bend in the silver. The piece that needed to b screwed was bent at an angle and the piece it to screwed into was indented.

And as far as 'I'm the cleaning lady in my house' goes? That's the best reason of all! If I break something, I have to pay to fix it!

Chana Miriam S

Wed, Jun 13 2012, 9:42 pm

I once made an $1800 dollar mistake in a printing order. It was completely my fault. The boss, who was otherwise a total XXXX [language edited by a mod], did a very cool thing. I had made a mistake in a telephone number- he called bell and ordered a phone line so that if anyone called, there would not be a 'this number is not in service.' He did not charge me.

It was an elegant solution to something I thought for sure was unfixable and it was then I learned that sometimes you can do the elegant and proper thing, even if in general, the mistake was stupid. To be honest, I would have found a way to pay for it, if I had had to, but the fact that he worked out a solution and was so kind about it was amazing.

My cat knocked my candlesticks down 18.5 years ago and they were unfixable. This year, I was able to sell them back to the store and the silver had increased in value so much that I was able to buy the same set at a much increased price and still come out with $55.

I no longer have a cat, and my kids are no longer little, but we are still being very careful anyways.

b from nj

Wed, Jun 13 2012, 9:56 pm

allrgymama wrote:

True, you didn't force her to pay but you did make her feel very uncomfortable about continuing to work for you. I am confused about your comment above that she is insisting on bringing you all the money at once tomorrow. That is extremely kind of her to offer that especially since she no longer wants to work for you anymore.. It sounds like you just lost out on a very good worker even if she did break your silver (as mine did-as I mentioned above....)

Chana Miriam S

Wed, Jun 13 2012, 10:02 pm

allrgymama wrote:

she is obviously a person of great integrity. that is worth far more in a cleaning lady than $40. I would hire her.

spinkles

Wed, Jun 13 2012, 10:04 pm

Quote:

And as far as 'I'm the cleaning lady in my house' goes? That's the best reason of all! If I break something, I have to pay to fix it!

No way. That analogy doesn't work. If I break something, I decide whether I'm going to get it fixed, and if so, when. It's my choice.

Your situation was more as if my husband came home, found I'd broken something, and asked me which I wanted to give up: the new skirt I just bought, or iced coffees for the next x number of weeks. That's presented as a choice but isn't really a choice.

spinkles

Wed, Jun 13 2012, 10:07 pm

Quote:

I once made an $1800 dollar mistake in a printing order. It was completely my fault. The boss, who was otherwise a total XXXX, did a very cool thing. I had made a mistake in a telephone number- he called bell and ordered a phone line so that if anyone called, there would not be a 'this number is not in service.' He did not charge me.

Love this story!

amother

Wed, Jun 13 2012, 11:31 pm

whats done is done op, dont beat yourself up. the fact that she accidently broke or bent your silver, is a human mistake. knowing that she played around with it after she did that, and obviously didnt come to you, teling you what she did, strikes me as you being better off wothout her in the long run.
my cleaning lady's have made me buy new windowshades, cracked nice vases, fix expensive vacuum cleaners, expensive rowenta irons,the list goes on and on, heck, they even made me change tiles in my shower! I have NEVER asked them to pay me back. I do however always tell them, rather come straight to me with what your broke by mistake, than me finding out on my own. for THAT I will not tollerate. does it work every time? I would say it for sure puts them on guard to be more carful, gives them something to think about... but asking them to pay you back, I would personaly be scared theyd try to get the money back right away by maybe taking a small thing that you wouldnt notice... you need to understand, they are here illegaly, they have kids waiting for them at home, a husband waiting for their every penny. so when she comes home with no paycheck.... she'd be scared and would come up wth an idea to make up for her losses....
hope you find someone real quick, someone you'll be happy with. I know how frustrating it is when you dont have the extra help...

MaBelleVie

Wed, Jun 13 2012, 11:37 pm

allrgymama wrote:

So you didn't literally force her, but you made it clear that is was expected. Again, how would you feel if you accidentally broke something that belonged to someone else, and before you had a chance to offer to pay for it, they started making calculations regarding how you plan to pay them back?

amother

Thu, Jun 14 2012, 12:00 am

Not exactly the classy thing to do. I could have told you before you said it that she'd quit...especially if she only works for you part time. Mistakes happen...from my experience, these kinds of things come with the territory....they don't understand the concept of expensive, delicate...they come from poverty. In general, if you like a cleaning lady and you want to keep her, it's in your best interest to swallow these costs. Otherwise, you're the one who will unfortunately lose out. I know it seems unfair but that's just the way it is Sad

Mrs.K

Thu, Jun 14 2012, 2:09 am

Honestly, I love my cleaning lady. She's wonderful, trustworthy, hard-working, and even great with my kids. Things have broken before (Some small like a glass or mug, some really expensive like when she used the wrong cleaner on my new bathroom faucets. They were extremely expensive and turned a tarnished color a week after getting them. I just asked if next time she can use a softer type of cleaner and now my beautiful new bathrooms have something to remind me we're in galus.) and I always tell her it's okay because I don't want to lose her and because I don't want to create a hostile work place environment when we have such a great relationship.

Listen, OP, I know it's a frustrating situation, but sometimes it pays to bend when this is someone that you have to deal with a lot in the future. Well it's nice be easy going with everyone, sure, but sometimes it's very hard. But the people that we have to deal with all the time like your neighbors or coworkers or shul members or the grocer on the corner that insists on overcharging for cucumbers, or Aunt Gertrude that tells you every time she sees you that you look like a shlump and are you aware that they make birth control these days. Even though I have a neighbor that isn't a very nice person, I know I see this woman that I must encounter several times a day so I keep my mouth shut and have never mentioned the things she has done to us so as not to make a yucky situation much much yuckier.

If I had to pay out of my salary every time I made a mistake at work, I think my hair would turn gray within the week. We all make mistakes and many people aren't strong enough to have that stress hanging over their heads.

bamamama

Thu, Jun 14 2012, 2:20 am

allrgymama wrote:

Wait, you forgot: "and she's a [gentile] AND she's dark-skinned/a stupid Pole/etc."

Rolling Eyes

I can't believe almost all the responses you got rolled right by this. Lady, you (and I) have NO idea what this woman's life is really like and/or what her needs are. Yes, $11 is "above" minimum wage, but it is still a minimum wage. $22,000/year if she's working full time. That's maybe barely enough to support one person let alone a family. We live our lives on the backs of the immigrants (legal and not) in the service sector and we have not the slightest idea how difficult many of their lives are. There but for the grace of Gd go I.

I sure hope you don't take that woman's cash tomorrow.

Tablepoetry

Thu, Jun 14 2012, 3:58 am

I've never asked a cleaning lady to pay. And things have been damaged over the years by different cleaning ladies. Even the house I bought has the living legacy of 'cleaning lady damage' - one of the marble counters in a bathroom is etched terribly by using the wrong cleaning detergent.
It's so hard for me to find a good cleaning lady, and I'm so grateful when I do find one, that I would never do anything to scare them off! But it is your right to ask for payment, I guess. It's just not done in my area (Israel).

ora_43

Thu, Jun 14 2012, 4:11 am

Mrs.K wrote:

If I had to pay out of my salary every time I made a mistake at work, I think my hair would turn gray within the week. We all make mistakes and many people aren't strong enough to have that stress hanging over their heads.

This.

People, especially people with little money, need to be able to make a budget. Imagine if you could barely afford food and you didn't know if you'd come out with $500 after working a 40-hour week, or if you'd break something by accident and only come out with $350.

People who work cleaning houses need to know that X hours of work = X pay, just like anyone else.

BTW at my work, there are certain things employees would have to pay for, but they are all in the category of negligence and the boss told us about it ahead of time. No surprises of "Oh, now that you did that wrong, perhaps I should mention that I'll be docking your pay."

I think halacha does say an employer can charge for damage to their property, but you can't expect the employee to know that, especially if they aren't Jewish. And if you use that option you could just end up with someone cleaning your house who's so afraid to break stuff that they work at 1/2 pace.

Raisin

Thu, Jun 14 2012, 5:13 am

Quote:

@Raisin: I don't know what cleaning ladies in your neighborhood make, but mine was getting paid $11 an hour. Last I checked, that's a couple dollars MORE than minimum wage. And, as I said, she increased her rate when she started needing a cab. She is most likely an illegal immigrant and not paying taxes so she walks home with everything. Her rent is probably lower than mine, her food costs are lower than mine, her clothing costs are lower than mine and so on.

To be honest? If she works PT - 20 hours a week - cleaning houses, she's making more money than I am. Thank God my husband has a job.

And she's cleaned my silver before. I had no reason to think that she wouldn't do it right this time.

And I skimp on other things to have a cleaning lady. And it's necessary for my shalom bayis.

Geez. Judgey much?

Mine earns $12.50 and that is cheap for around here. Cleaning houses is hard physical work.

her rent is lower because she likely lives in less space in a less nice house in a less expensive area.

Her food costs are lower why? Because you keep kosher? Or you eat expensive food?

If you choose to spend lots of money on clothes that is your choice.

I also skimp to have a cleaning lady. So I can understand you well on that. But please don't give me the line that poor me, I can't afford to pay to fix my silver. I struggle to find money for cleaning help but bh I live in a nice house and have enough food and clothing for my kids. I even get to live in the same house as my kids. One of my cleaning ladies left her kids in her home country and worked here for about 8 years so she could feed and educate them. She did not see her kids in all that time.

Anyway, I have learnt long ago that no cleaning lady is perfect. I had one who constantly threw away things. eventually I replaced her, but only when I found someone else.

I'd be very upset if my employer told me that because of a mistake I made in work a days pay would be docked.