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Forum
-> Interesting Discussions
Is what the women of the wall are doing halachically assur or just not okay hashkafically?
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| I think the Women of the Wall are doing something not technically assur, but not acceptable in today's environment |
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18% |
[ 15 ] |
| I think the WOmen of the Wall are doing something not allowed by halacha and also not acceptable in today's hashkafa |
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32% |
[ 26 ] |
| I think the Women of the wall are fine, both according to halacha and otherwise |
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43% |
[ 34 ] |
| other- please explain |
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5% |
[ 4 ] |
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| Total Votes : 79 |
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amother
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 Mon, May 06 2013, 12:22 pm
Someone told me that everyone knows that what the women of the wall are doing is not technically assur, just not acceptable in the current enviornment.
I did not know "everyone" knows that. Do you agree with that? Is wearing tefillin and reading the torah the way they do technically muttar? Did you know that? The only problem is hashkafa?
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amother
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Mon, May 06 2013, 12:37 pm
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everyone thinks what they are doing is fine? Really?
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causemommysaid
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Mon, May 06 2013, 12:39 pm
what are they doing except making a lot of noise?
as far as I know making noise is not assur.
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Ima2NYM_LTR
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Mon, May 06 2013, 12:42 pm
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I think they are doing nothing wrong...but I also think there is a group doing something wrong...the people who harass them and stop them from davening. THEY should be arrested for disturbing the peace.
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causemommysaid
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Mon, May 06 2013, 12:48 pm
| Ima2NYM_LTR wrote: | | I think they are doing nothing wrong...but I also think there is a group doing something wrong...the people who harass them and stop them from davening. THEY should be arrested for disturbing the peace. |
I havent been following the threads. Can you brief me in short on what they are doing? All I know is that they want more space for women to daven.
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Ima2NYM_LTR
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Mon, May 06 2013, 12:56 pm
| ysmommy wrote: | | Ima2NYM_LTR wrote: | | I think they are doing nothing wrong...but I also think there is a group doing something wrong...the people who harass them and stop them from davening. THEY should be arrested for disturbing the peace. |
I havent been following the threads. Can you brief me in short on what they are doing? All I know is that they want more space for women to daven. |
They want the right to daven in the women's section as a group of 10 or more women while wearing tallis/teffilin without being arrested or harassed or asulted. They also want to be able to say kaddish and lein, but from my understanding they will go to the Robinson Arch to lein for now. They go once a month for Rosh Chodesh.
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notshanarishona
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Mon, May 06 2013, 1:10 pm
There are many threads on this.. Trust me , there is NOTHING on imamother that EVERYONE will agree to (except maybe this statement) .
Not even what is the best tasting chocolate , for sure nothing hashkafically.
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HindaRochel
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Mon, May 06 2013, 1:17 pm
What they are doing is well within halacha according to some Orthodox authorities. This means that they are not violating Torah standards. As such, they should be left alone.
What causes the media circus is them being arrested, people throwing chairs at them, screaming at them etc. etc. etc.
Does anyone think that the media would care if what they did was go daven leave without anyone making an objection?
BTW, coming with their own camera crew isn't problematic either as long as they aren't bothering others in the prayer area. Plenty of people, such as brides, get their picture taken there.
And the charity I worked with took a bunch of children, went directly up to the kotel with their cameras, and took pictures.
Now that may have been bothersome....but no one threw chairs, cursed us, nor did we get arrested.
We didn't even get cited.
So please don't pull the "they come with cameras" line with me.
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Barbara
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Mon, May 06 2013, 1:33 pm
Video of people davening at the kotel circa 1936 (you can go to about 9:30 to see it). Either those are men in drag, or men and women are davening together. So let's talk again about customs at the kotel.
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greenfire
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Mon, May 06 2013, 2:05 pm
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people want to make halachic issues out of everything ... here's a thought why are you asking amothers when we are obviously incompetent women ... aylor
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Jerusalem Light
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Mon, May 06 2013, 2:06 pm
Women have written that what WOW is doing is fine as long as they don't bother people. This is the problem as it does bother many women in the ezrat nashim; it is very difficult to daven with kavanna when they are at the Kotel.
They do not enter the women's area because they are davenning with men. I have not heard at all that they are willing to leyn at Robinson's Arch; indeed, they recently rejected the suggested compromises put forward by Minister Sharansky.
All of this going on, taking our intention and attention, dividing our people while just above our heads the Muslims do not allow ANY of us to pray -- no Jew is allowed to pray on har habayit. Isn't that the problem we should be focusing on??
Submitted with respect and love for klal yisrael.
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notshanarishona
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Mon, May 06 2013, 2:12 pm
Halachically we are not alllowed on Har Habayis so why should we fight for it?!
I wish the Arabs weren't there but it prevents more people from being chayav kares.
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notshanarishona
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Mon, May 06 2013, 2:14 pm
R' Shteinman Shlita's reaction to the ruling on the women of the wall..
Obviously it's not so simple..
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com.....t.php
HaGaon Rav Shteinman Shlita Visits the Kosel
(Monday, April 29th, 2013)
HaGaon HaRav Aaron Yehuda Leib Shteinman Shlita on Sunday night the eve of 19 Iyar 5773 attended the chasenah of a grandchild in Wolf Hall in Yerushalayim. Prior to heading to the simcha, the Gadol Hador, accompanied by a few gabbaim arrived at the Kosel for Maariv. On location to meet him was Kosel rav Rabbi Shmuel Rabinowitz.
Rabbi Rabinowitz briefed Rav Shteinman on the recent decision of the Jerusalem District Court permitting Women of the Wall to daven at the Kosel in a minyan while wearing tallis and tefilin. Rabbi Rabinowitz explained the court ruled that doing so was not a violation as it interprets a Supreme Court ruling on the matter. They Gadol Hador moaned when he heard the justice ruling in the case wears a yarmulke and one who attended a chareidi yeshiva.
Rav Shteinman is quoted as saying “we must be mispallel for Rachmei Shomayim, that this and similar rulings will be canceled and turned to good.”
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Barbara
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Mon, May 06 2013, 2:20 pm
| Jerusalem Light wrote: | Women have written that what WOW is doing is fine as long as they don't bother people. This is the problem as it does bother many women in the ezrat nashim; it is very difficult to daven with kavanna when they are at the Kotel.
They do not enter the women's area because they are davenning with men. I have not heard at all that they are willing to leyn at Robinson's Arch; indeed, they recently rejected the suggested compromises put forward by Minister Sharansky.
All of this going on, taking our intention and attention, dividing our people while just above our heads the Muslims do not allow ANY of us to pray -- no Jew is allowed to pray on har habayit. Isn't that the problem we should be focusing on??
Submitted with respect and love for klal yisrael. |
It's easier to respond with photos.
Do the WoW leyn at Robinson's Arch:
Do they enter the women's area to daven amongst women (but not leyn):
But I would guess that it is difficult to daven with kavana when men are climbing on chairs to peer over the mechitza, shout obscenities, and throw chairs and feces; and while police are arresting women for the crimb of davening. I'm just not sure why that's the fault of the WoW.
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Merrymom
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Mon, May 06 2013, 2:37 pm
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I think they're just looking to cause a disturbance. I would not be able to concentrate on my prayers if I had to listen to them. How about the rest of us? Do those of us that aren't davening with a minyan have a say? I like the quiet on the women's side. Honestly I don't know how the men do it. If I was one I certainly would not make a habit out of davening at the kotel, there are a million minyanim going on at once. It's chaos there. Whenever I was there with dh he always davened with the minyan right off the kotel where at least you can concentrate.
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HindaRochel
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Mon, May 06 2013, 2:53 pm
| Merrymom wrote: | | I think they're just looking to cause a disturbance. I would not be able to concentrate on my prayers if I had to listen to them. How about the rest of us? Do those of us that aren't davening with a minyan have a say? I like the quiet on the women's side. Honestly I don't know how the men do it. If I was one I certainly would not make a habit out of davening at the kotel, there are a million minyanim going on at once. It's chaos there. Whenever I was there with dh he always davened with the minyan right off the kotel where at least you can concentrate. |
Look at the picture. They are in the back, most of the women are far off in the front. Their noise would be minimal; if anything the women are most likely hearing the voices of the men's minyanim. Look at where they are standing, how they are standing. A see a few Tefillin, not a lot, the women are all modestly dressed. Look at the women in the front. Are they turning around? Do they seem disturbed? It is the men who want to look over the mechitza despite a secondary boundary. That isn't the fault of the women that the men are immature.
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DrMom
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Mon, May 06 2013, 2:58 pm
I was at the Kotel a few months ago. There was a bar mitzvah there. As they approached the Kotel Plaza, they had a procession with shofarim and darbukas (drums). It made a lot of noise, yet they were not arrested for disturbing the peace.
They made a lot more noise than 10 davening women do.
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HindaRochel
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Mon, May 06 2013, 3:12 pm
| Jerusalem Light wrote: | | Women have written that what WOW is doing is fine as long as they don't bother people. This is the problem as it does bother many women in the ezrat nashim; it is very difficult to daven with kavanna when they are at the Kotel. |
I need a wrong buzzer. Why don't we have a wrong buzzer. Oh well BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP.
No those defending WoW are not saying "as long as they don't bother people" not in the way you are using the words. What is said is that they are not causing a ruckus with their behavior by being noisy, or violent, or getting into people's faces or what have you, because, yes, some people are bothered by their presence.
THAT is not a way to make a law. I'm "bothered" by some people as well. Can I prevent them from davening the way they want to daven? Can I stop women who are very dramatic in their davening - raising their hands and calling out to Hashem, from doing so...it does catch my attention, and I'm sure it bothers some people, it actually doesn't bother me but I'm certain it distracts some women from their kavanah. And once when I was there a woman was weeping bitterly...did it distract me? Yep...well because I cared and didn't know what to do...but still next time I'll alert the police because I was bothered. (No I won't obviously and if I see such a lie spread about I'll catch you and pull up this whole post.)
| Quote: | | They do not enter the women's area because they are davenning with men. I have not heard at all that they are willing to leyn at Robinson's Arch; indeed, they recently rejected the suggested compromises put forward by Minister Sharansky. |
BEEEP BEEEP BEEEP BEEEEEP. They obviously do enter the women's section...see the pictures. They did layn at the Robinson's Arch. They rejected the compromises because they are 1)unnecessary 2)were rejected by the Rabbi and the archaeologists 3)didn't satisfy the need to daven with women only 4)the area still needs to be built up first, and that doesn't look like it is going to happen.
Try again?
| Quote: | All of this going on, taking our intention and attention, dividing our people while just above our heads the Muslims do not allow ANY of us to pray -- no Jew is allowed to pray on har habayit. Isn't that the problem we should be focusing on??
Submitted with respect and love for klal yisrael. |
Well that's why I"m opposed to Women for the Wall. They are causing a disturbance...Women for the Wall, by making a big deal of an hour a month, they are causing sinat chinam, and there is a greater cause to fight for, one which they state they are for but so far I haven't seen any posts regarding the issue.
Maybe because their core supporters aren't really for praying on Har Habayit.
btw...percentage of time that WoW is at the wall over the course of the year. 0.12557077625570776 % please note that is POINT 0.12557077625570776% Less than 1% of the year. Less than 1/2% of the year. THIS 0.12557077625570776 amount of time is what is going to make or break your prayers? Honestly? Then one's kavanah just doesn't exist and I suggest that is something that needs to be worked on. Not fear of Anat.
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causemommysaid
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Mon, May 06 2013, 3:34 pm
| Ima2NYM_LTR wrote: | | ysmommy wrote: | | Ima2NYM_LTR wrote: | | I think they are doing nothing wrong...but I also think there is a group doing something wrong...the people who harass them and stop them from davening. THEY should be arrested for disturbing the peace. |
I havent been following the threads. Can you brief me in short on what they are doing? All I know is that they want more space for women to daven. |
They want the right to daven in the women's section as a group of 10 or more women while wearing tallis/teffilin without being arrested or harassed or asulted. They also want to be able to say kaddish and lein, but from my understanding they will go to the Robinson Arch to lein for now. They go once a month for Rosh Chodesh. |
Thanks!
My question is, are they doing it to prove a point- a women's lib thing or do they just want to daven?
If its the former then its not so simple- it means they are trying to incite others.
if its the latter then I cant think of anything halachically wrong with it. I find it odd but not wrong.
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etky
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Mon, May 06 2013, 4:18 pm
| DrMom wrote: | I was at the Kotel a few months ago. There was a bar mitzvah there. As they approached the Kotel Plaza, they had a procession with shofarim and darbukas (drums). It made a lot of noise, yet they were not arrested for disturbing the peace.
They made a lot more noise than 10 davening women do. |
One of the last times we were there there was a hachnasat sefer torah and it was so loud I thought I would go deaf from the music. DH was saying kaddish (it was his father's yarzheit) and he couldn't even hear himself say it.
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