REVISED Is what WoW are doing Halachically assur?

HindaRochel

Mon, May 06 2013, 4:57 pm

ysmommy wrote:

Ima2NYM_LTR wrote:

ysmommy wrote:

Ima2NYM_LTR wrote:

I think they are doing nothing wrong...but I also think there is a group doing something wrong...the people who harass them and stop them from davening. THEY should be arrested for disturbing the peace.

I havent been following the threads. Can you brief me in short on what they are doing? All I know is that they want more space for women to daven.

They want the right to daven in the women's section as a group of 10 or more women while wearing tallis/teffilin without being arrested or harassed or asulted. They also want to be able to say kaddish and lein, but from my understanding they will go to the Robinson Arch to lein for now. They go once a month for Rosh Chodesh.

Thanks!

My question is, are they doing it to prove a point- a women's lib thing or do they just want to daven?

If its the former then its not so simple- it means they are trying to incite others.

if its the latter then I cant think of anything halachically wrong with it. I find it odd but not wrong.

I can't tell you why each individual woman is davening with the women's group - not being psychic I can't read minds. I can tell you why I joined a women's minyan, as well as a women's gemera group.
1. I wanted to learn gemera
2. I wanted to increase my participation in davening
3. Socialization (before and after the learning/davening, not during it) with women

What I got from the groups.
1. Learning gemera was fascinating...and I began to understand the halachot better.
2. Davening and participating increased my kavanah and connection to Hashem.
3. I met with a fascinating and wonderful group of women.

Feminist? Probably...I'm not sure why this is wrong. Feminism isn't about being a man, it is about fully actualizing one's rights and oneself. I am a feminist. I do think one would have to be a bit of a feminist to join such a group, but really aren't we past the "feminist are witches" point of view?

But it wasn't to make a "point", but merely because I was a feminist it didn't seem to be a negative action, and it also came from a place of not feeling content to stay where I was but move further along a particular path.

It was not about being a man, feeling jealous of a man or anything similar. Quite frankly I have no desire whatsoever to be a male, given a choice, I'd go for female.

So how do they feel? People who assume facts which are not in evidence make for poor judges. I do not know why any particular woman is choosing this path for herself. Ask each individual woman.

WoW is about the right, not the reason for the right.

HindaRochel

Mon, May 06 2013, 5:00 pm

BTW updating from [/quote]Arutz Sheva

[quote]No Appeal against Women of the Wall Approval

In a meeting attended by Attorney-General Yehuda Weinstein, Religious Services Minister Naftali Bennett and his Deputy, Rabbi Eli Ben Dahan it was decided not to appeal the Court ruling stating Women of the Wall are not guilty of violating prayer customs at the Western Wall.

The Religious Services Ministry will reassess the law against violation of holy site prayer customs and consider redefining its parameters.

HindaRochel

Mon, May 06 2013, 5:02 pm

BTW updating from Arutz Sheva

Quote:

No Appeal against Women of the Wall Approval

In a meeting attended by Attorney-General Yehuda Weinstein, Religious Services Minister Naftali Bennett and his Deputy, Rabbi Eli Ben Dahan it was decided not to appeal the Court ruling stating Women of the Wall are not guilty of violating prayer customs at the Western Wall.

The Religious Services Ministry will reassess the law against violation of holy site prayer customs and consider redefining its parameters.

Seraph

Mon, May 06 2013, 5:25 pm

ysmommy wrote:

Ima2NYM_LTR wrote:

ysmommy wrote:

Ima2NYM_LTR wrote:

I havent been following the threads. Can you brief me in short on what they are doing? All I know is that they want more space for women to daven.

Women's Lib.

Quote:

We work to further our mission through social advocacy, education and empowerment.

In our social advocacy work, we aim to change the status-quo that is currently preventing women from being able to pray freely at the Western Wall. This goal has great ramifications for women’s rights in Judaism and in Israel and must be achieved through social advocacy in order to raise awareness and change the social perception of these issues.

We take it upon ourselves to educate Jewish women and the public about the social, political and personal ramifications of limiting and eliminating women’s right to pray as a group at a holy site. When the law and the society literally, publicly and deliberately silence women in prayer, it is a violation of civil rights, human rights and religious freedoms. Education is the key to changing perspectives, laws and lives.

Every time we meet to pray, we empower and encourage Jewish women to embrace religion freely, in their own way. We stand proudly and strongly in the forefront of the movement for religious pluralism in Israel, in the hopes to inspire and empower women from all over the world and across the spectrum of Jewish movements to find their spiritual voice.

With this great mission before us, our vision is to strengthen and expand our organization, to reach out and influence policy makers and leaders, to demand full access to prayer at the Western Wall for women. In addition, Women of the Wall works to expand our network of allies and partners around the world who will advocate and take action with us.

http://womenofthewall.org.il/about/mission-statement/

Seraph

Mon, May 06 2013, 5:28 pm

From Women of the Wall's facebook page today:

Quote:

Women of the Wall Nashot HaKotel
2 hours ago near Beersheba, HaDarom
It is a shameful day for the Israeli judicial system.

Attorney General Weinstein released a statement today in which he rejects the 24.4.13 District Court decision supporting Women of the Wall's right to freedom of religion at the Western Wall. In a meeting with Rabbi Rabinowitz, Chair of the Western Wall Heritage Foundation, and Minister of Religious Services Naftali Bennet, his Vice Minister, Rabbi Ben Dahan and the states attorney, it was decided that the Attorney General will not appeal the District Court decision to the Supreme Court, though he also does not state that he accepts the ruling. His solution: to return to the 1981 addition to the law of holy places, which forbids citizens to pray in ways that are "contrary to the local custom". The term "local custom" has failed to be defined in the 22 years since passing the addendum to the law, thus the need for legal clarity. Minister Bennet has proposed that he would like to reexamine this addendum, and introduce amendments to the law.

Women of the Wall urge the Attorney General to act and lead in accordance to legal proceedings of the State of Israel. The most recent legal ruling, if it is not challenged in the Supreme Court, should set precedent for women's right to pray freely, according to their belief, on the women's side of the Western Wall.

Hundreds of brave women will continue this struggle with Women of the Wall at the Kotel for Rosh Hodesh Sivan morning prayers on May 10, 2013 at 7AM. Women of the Wall invite all those who believe in equal rights and freedom of expression in Israel to join them, en masse at the Kotel. Jews around the world are encouraged to continue their great contribution to the struggle for pluralism and women's civil rights in Israel. Together we must keep up the pressure and demand that our voices be heard!

shalhevet

Mon, May 06 2013, 5:38 pm

Seraph wrote:

From Women of the Wall's facebook page today:

Quote:

Now what contribution would that be?

Daven to Hashem to help them? I think not.

Hold similar prayer groups in solidarity? Now what would that accomplish since their only aim is to make headlines and they don't seem to even think of davenning as anything to do with Hashem or talking to Him. It's a "struggle for pluralism and women's civil rights in Israel".

Come and join them at the kotel? In that case they wouldn't be asking this of the Jews around the world.

So there's only one thing left that they are asking for. I guess that's what all this is about.

Hidden:

Seraph

Mon, May 06 2013, 5:44 pm

shalhevet wrote:

Seraph wrote:

From Women of the Wall's facebook page today:

Quote:

Hidden:

Ima2NYM_LTR

Mon, May 06 2013, 5:49 pm

Seraph wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

Seraph wrote:

From Women of the Wall's facebook page today:

Quote:

Hidden:

where can I get one???

Seraph

Mon, May 06 2013, 6:00 pm

Ima2NYM_LTR wrote:

Seraph wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

Seraph wrote:

From Women of the Wall's facebook page today:

Quote:

Hidden:

where can I get one???

Ask Anat Hoffman.

Clarissa

Mon, May 06 2013, 6:07 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

I can't wait until Shavuot gets closer. All of the women foaming at the mouth about WoW can focus on making cheesecakes. Trust me, that's a much better use of your time.

Mine's in the freezer.
And some of us multi-task Compress

Not much for me to say, but from what I've seen, if this were my battle, I don't know if I'd want Anat Hoffman to be my spokesperson.

I have one in the freezer, too. I'm not too happy with it so I'm making another. Or maybe I just feel like making another. It distracts me from the HUGE disturbance at the Wall that forever disrupts the holiness of the site.

bamamama

Mon, May 06 2013, 6:14 pm

I just set up the tent in the backyard for my kids. The bald eagle who lives at the top of our hill was circling above enjoying the thermals. My daughter and sons are now enjoying books and apples in the tent.

What does this have to do with WoW?

When I look at my daughter and how free and untouched she is by gender expectations, I thank God that women like Anat Hoffman are in the world - women who have the courage to raise a bit of a ruckus when necessary and show the world that women have a voice and will be heard. Is it a "women's lib" thing (what archaic language, but suit yourselves)? You better believe it. Why on earth would you accept second class citizenship for your daughters? Why are women like Seraph, who clearly like attention and aren't afraid of raising a ruckus themselves, fighting to silence their sisters? You are nothing more than tools of the patriarchy. You are training your daughters to be subservient to men. How exactly does this fit in 2013?

Seraph

Mon, May 06 2013, 6:19 pm

bamamama wrote:

When I look at my daughter and how free and untouched she is by gender expectations, I thank God that women like Anat Hoffman are in the world - women who have the courage to raise a bit of a ruckus when necessary and show the world that women have a voice and will be heard. Is it a "women's lib" thing (what archaic language, but suit yourselves)? You better believe it. Why on earth would you accept second class citizenship for your daughters? Why are women like Seraph, who clearly like attention and aren't afraid of raising a ruckus themselves, fighting to silence their sisters? You are nothing more than tools of the patriarchy. You are training your daughters to be subservient to men. How exactly does this fit in 2013?

Wow. Shkoyach on your respect and ahavas yisrael. Applause

I'm so glad we had this talk.

bamamama

Mon, May 06 2013, 6:20 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

I can't wait until Shavuot gets closer. All of the women foaming at the mouth about WoW can focus on making cheesecakes. Trust me, that's a much better use of your time.

Mine's in the freezer.
And some of us multi-task Compress

Not much for me to say, but from what I've seen, if this were my battle, I don't know if I'd want Anat Hoffman to be my spokesperson.

Hey, PF, have you ever made cheesecake with Bailey's Irish Cream? (I can't remember if it was ever kosher)? Now THAT'S a fine cheesecake.

Ima2NYM_LTR

Mon, May 06 2013, 6:21 pm

bamamama wrote:

PinkFridge wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

I can't wait until Shavuot gets closer. All of the women foaming at the mouth about WoW can focus on making cheesecakes. Trust me, that's a much better use of your time.

Mine's in the freezer.
And some of us multi-task Compress

Not much for me to say, but from what I've seen, if this were my battle, I don't know if I'd want Anat Hoffman to be my spokesperson.

Hey, PF, have you ever made cheesecake with Bailey's Irish Cream? (I can't remember if it was ever kosher)? Now THAT'S a fine cheesecake.

Im coming to you for Shavuos!

bamamama

Mon, May 06 2013, 6:27 pm

Seraph wrote:

bamamama wrote:

Wow. Shkoyach on your respect and ahavas yisrael. Applause

I'm so glad we had this talk.

It's particularly rich that you are lecturing me on ahavat yisrael.