Trying to forgive you for stealing my housekeeper

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Forum -> Household Management -> Cleaning & Laundry

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granolamom

Tue, Jun 04 2013, 6:26 pm

I'm not great at DLZ. I try of course, but still, it eats at me.
I'm better at saying to myself, this is what was supposed to be. the neighbor in this case, was just the shaliach.
then its no longer between my and the neighbor, its between me and G-d. Tell him you need a new housekeeper because he took your last one and sent her to the neighbor!

ElTam

Tue, Jun 04 2013, 6:35 pm

Clarissa, what the heck does she do? I pay $12/hr. Plus I tip her by the holidays.

Clarissa

Tue, Jun 04 2013, 6:43 pm

ElTam wrote:

Clarissa, what the heck does she do? I pay $12/hr. Plus I tip her by the holidays.

It's Manhattan. Everything costs more.

acccdac

Tue, Jun 04 2013, 6:45 pm

ElTam wrote:

The housekeeper is also not a possession that you can steal. She's a person. I would let it go and keep working on finding someone new.

I hope your health issues improve.

I agree, I have "stolen" two maybe three housekeeper already.
if you noticed I've put stolen in quotes. When I started using the housekeeper they were with someone else and I got permission. To use the housekeeper. Whenever the other person needed the housekeeper I usually had her go to the other person unless I really couldn't budge because those hours are usually mine and I needed the housekeeper to watch my kids while I worked.

The current housekeeper I have was not working for anyone when I used her. I took her because I was desperate and I needed someone I could trust. She was supposed to go back to the other woman after 6 months. When that time arrived I told her I totally understand because that is what we arranged but if she could give me notice and train someone for me. She responded that she has not heard from the other woman but even if she did she wants to stay with me.

This was her decision as an employee the same way I switched teaching from a jewish school in my area to another jewish school. I gave them notice and told them myself before they heard it through the grapevine, but I was completely okay to leave my job just like she was.

Maybe I left my previous school in a bind but that's part of the territory.

There are "rules" to follow when someone quits or leaves a job, such as doing it with notice and trying to help with the transition. However, that doesn't mean that others will follow these rules.

I also pay the current housekeeper above average payment because I know she can find it elsewhere and I don't want to lose her

amother

Tue, Jun 04 2013, 6:47 pm

Clarissa wrote:

Whoa, you guys get good deals. I pay mine a bit over $21/hr.

You probably use a cleaning service that employs legal workers to clean your house. They may even have insurance to cover accidents.

The people here are talking about illegal Mexican/polish.. cleaning help. They don't realize that we also pay them way more with all the free government aid they receive.

Clarissa

Tue, Jun 04 2013, 6:49 pm

amother wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

Whoa, you guys get good deals. I pay mine a bit over $21/hr.

Not a cleaning service, but she is American.

amother

Tue, Jun 04 2013, 6:53 pm

Cleaning ladies have often shown a preference for working for me. It isn't always about $. It is about being nice, showing respect. My house never has a gigantic mess. I make my cleaning lady a nice big lunch and give her leftovers to take home. I ask about her kids. I give her my things I don't use anymore. Their husbands tell my husband no one ever treats their wives so nice. I don't treat them.any better or worse than I do any employee.

On the other hand I hear how women talk about their cleaning ladies. They treat them as sub-human. They mock their clothes and talk about how much better we are then them - how we live a better life and eat with silver. It is ridiculous. My daughter lost her best friend because I got sick of her mother mocking Spanish cleaning ladies. I mentioned to her that my husband is Spanish. Our friendship came to a screaming halt and her daughter is not allowed at my house and my daughter is not allowed at her house.

Attitude plays a big role in who cleaning ladies choose to work for.

abby1776

Tue, Jun 04 2013, 6:58 pm

amother wrote:

I agree - there was a thread somewhere insisting that cleaning ladies clean the floor on their hands and knees because that is what the woman of the house would do - but that is demeaning and cleaning ladies dont want to do that even if you do it with them.

They are people too and deserve some respect.

amother

Tue, Jun 04 2013, 7:09 pm

amother wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

Whoa, you guys get good deals. I pay mine a bit over $21/hr.

The illegal Mexicans/polish .. cleaning help are not receiving so many benefits compared to those hiring them get.

KJ is on 50% food stamps yet everyone has cleaning lady.

You need to look at the discount you are getting when you calculate the benefits you receive. Hey, if you look at this your way, your cleaning lady is giving you an allowance.

ElTam

Tue, Jun 04 2013, 8:57 pm

Hate to break it to you but there have been actual studies done (for example, one done by the government of the state of Texas) that show illegals pay more into the system than they take out. They make a positive impact on taxes to the tune of billions of dollars.

The Congressional Budget Office reports that between 50 percent and 75 percent of illegal immigrants work on the books, paying all federal, state, and local income taxes.

Quote:

During 2006, Standard & Poor's analysts wrote: "Each year, for example, the U.S. Social Security Administration maintains roughly $6 billion to $7 billion of Social Security contributions in an "earnings suspense file"—an account for W-2 tax forms that cannot be matched to the correct Social Security number. The vast majority of these numbers are attributable to illegal workers who will never claim their benefits."[31]

The Social Security Administration has stated that it believes unauthorized work by non-citizens is a major cause of wage items being posted as erroneous wage reports instead of on an individual's earnings record.[32] When Social Security numbers are already in use; names do not match the numbers or the numbers are fake, or the person of record is too old, young, dead etc., the earnings reported to the Social Security Agency are put in an Earnings Suspense file [ESF]. The Social Security spends about $100 million a year and corrects all but about 2% of these. From tax years 1937 through 2003 the ESF had accumulated about 255 million mismatched wage reports, representing $520 billion in wages and about $75 billion in employment taxes paid into the over $1.5 trillion in the Social Security Trust funds. As of October 2005, approximately 8.8 million wage reports, representing $57.8 billion in wages remained unresolved in the suspense file for tax year 2003.[32]

AND

Quote:

Professor of Law Francine Lipman [54] writes that the belief that illegal migrants are exploiting the US economy and that they cost more in services than they contribute to the economy is "undeniably false". Lipman asserts that "illegal immigrants actually contribute more to public coffers in taxes than they cost in social services" and "contribute to the U.S. economy through their investments and consumption of goods and services; filling of millions of essential worker positions resulting in subsidiary job creation, increased productivity and lower costs of goods and services; and unrequited contributions to Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance programs."[55]

Aviva Chomsky, a professor at Salem State College, states that "Early studies in California and in the Southwest and in the Southeast...have come to the same conclusions. Immigrants, legal and illegal, are more likely to pay taxes than they are to use public services. illegal immigrants aren't eligible for most public services and live in fear of revealing themselves to government authorities. Households headed by illegal immigrants use less than half the amount of federal services that households headed by documented immigrants or citizens make use of."[56]

Editorialist Robert Samuelson points out that poor immigrants strain public services such as local schools and health care. He points out that "from 2000 to 2006, 41 percent of the increase in people without health insurance occurred among Hispanics", although he makes clear that these facts are true of legal as well as illegal immigrants.[57]

According to a 1998 article in The National Academies Press, "many [previous studies] represented not science but advocacy from both sides of the immigration debate...often offered an incomplete accounting of either the full list of taxpayer costs and benefits by ignoring some programs and taxes while including others," and that "the conceptual foundation of this research was rarely explicitly stated, offering opportunities to tilt the research toward the desired result."[58] One survey conducted in the 1980s found that 76 percent of economists felt recent illegal immigration had a positive effect on the economy.[59]

amother

Tue, Jun 04 2013, 9:00 pm

Quote:

Thank you for saying this. I know people who whine and complain about how they can't keep a cleaning lady/their cleaning lady keeps quitting on them, etc... I really wish I had the guts to say, "It's because you treat them like garbage."

MaBelleVie

Tue, Jun 04 2013, 9:14 pm

amother wrote:

I grew up with that attitude (yours) and it really bothers me too when people disparage the unfortunate women who work for minimum wage scrubbing the crud off their holy toilets.

I'm sorry your friend is such a loser. I hope your daughter handled the loss of that friendship well.

ima_dina084

Tue, Jun 04 2013, 9:28 pm

Umm.... No one stole your housekeeper. Just as your neighbor isn't aware of your hardship so are her hardships hidden from you, so don't assume she isn't just as much in need of help as you are.
Regardless, the housekeeper has her own mind and she decided not to work for you. Tough . There's many other housekeepers out there don't blame anyone for needing to look for a new one.
I understand that 10/hr may be all you can offered to pay. You will find people willing to work for that. But don't expect the next one to work with you for 10 years without a raise, either.

Chana Miriam S

Tue, Jun 04 2013, 9:34 pm

amother wrote:

I basically shared my employee with another woman, we each had her for a few hours daily.

When she asked me for a raise, I always called the other employer to make sure we gave a consistent answer. (I hope that's not considered price-fixing? Or subject to anti-trust laws?)

But we always treated her well.

Right, she is not a possession, but deliberately hiring someone away from someone else is not ethical.

Um. Why isn't it ethical? Businesses do it all the time. So do schools, Shula and almost every other organization I can think of that uses staff. And what is unethical about a working person trying to do better for themselves?

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. This original post seems pretty passive Agressive for someone trying to be dzlk.

If you had her for ten years, maybe this was what was best for your cleaner.

Chana Miriam S

Tue, Jun 04 2013, 9:40 pm

I will just add that I have had lots of cleaning people. I pay better than I pay my employees. Still I had trouble finding one that worked. A couple of years ago, I hired my sisters nanny who comes from an hour away. Right away, I gave her five dollars an hour more than she asked for. She is reliable, trustworthy and when she goes away she finds me excellent subs. Last month when one of the pair had a bridal shower, we were invited and we were the only non phillipinos there! They also went out of their way to get food we could eat.

So, pay well, show them they are valued and you might still get a crank or two- we did but in the end, I am so glad this whole out of town nanny thing worked out!

ora_43

Tue, Jun 04 2013, 10:55 pm

momX4 wrote:

2) If you pay her more money with consulting all the people that share her. In my neighborhood we share 2 cleaning ladies. When someone offered her more money, she raised her rates by everyone. If one person just decides to tip her because company made a massive mess, or kids destroyed the playroom again, she wont ask everyone else to give her more.

How would that work? Just because one person is willing to pay more doesn't mean she can afford to quit all her other jobs if they don't do the same. And if she can't afford to quit, they can get away with continuing to pay the same rate.

slushiemom

Tue, Jun 04 2013, 11:12 pm

I agree with those who said that this is how capitalism works.

I'm sorry you're in a bind, but unless she was under contract with you (which I doubt) she has free will to quit whenever she chooses, for whatever reason.

I pay a few shekel more per hour for babysitters than the going rate. I want my babysitters to want to babysit for me, and they do. Is that unfair to my neighbors?

m in Israel

Wed, Jun 05 2013, 2:17 am

As others have said, your employee can work for whomever she wants -- it is not your neighbor's job to keep her happy in your house. It may very well be she simply preferred to work for only one person rather than two. At one point I taught in two schools, one in the morning and one in the afternoon. The morning school decided they would prefer I didn't have to always run out right away to my other job, and have my head/ loyalties split, so they offered me a longer job so I could quit my afternoon job. It meant a bit less money for me -- it was a 3/4 job, not full time, but I decided it was worth it for my own peace of mind as well, so for the next school year that's what I did. Was it unethical of them to offer this to me? Or for me to take it? Did they "steal" me from the other school? I certainly never thought of it that way -- that's how business relationships work: employer and employee both are looking to get what's best for them, in terms of working conditions, hours, etc. The spots where the needs and desires of each party intersect is what determines who works for who.

As far as the discussion regarding price fixing, for everyone who thinks it's "not fair" for an employer to raise prices without consulting everyone else who employs cleaning ladies, well how would you view it if it happened in reverse? What if all the cleaning ladies in your city "unionized" and agreed that no one will work for anyone who pays less than a certain amount? Would you think it reasonable? And if they used that power to keep prices very high, how would you feel about that? Why is that any different then a bunch of employers gathering together to keep prices artificially low?

m in Israel

Wed, Jun 05 2013, 2:22 am

ElTam wrote:

Quote:

AND

Quote:

This is interesting, but irrelevant to the discussion. In our scenario, these women DON'T pay taxes -- the employer is the one posting, so she knows. I have never heard of any cleaning lady who gets $10 -- $11 an hour having a legal working relationship with her employer. These statistics are taking into account those illegal immigrants working for real businesses -- often with false ss numbers. Therefore taxes are withheld and filed under the fake numbers.

wispalover

Wed, Jun 05 2013, 4:58 am

amother wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

Whoa, you guys get good deals. I pay mine a bit over $21/hr.

^^This attitude makes me sick.^^

Housekeepers aren't commodities to be at our beck and call 24/7. Illegal Mexican/Polish/Estonian women have feelings too and are allowed to be selective in who they chose to work for.

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