Source for tzniut=mitzvah

MaBelleVie

Thu, Dec 05 2013, 10:24 am

Yonah, WADR, you don't seem to be fully on board with the basis of orthodox Judaism.

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Dec 05 2013, 10:38 am

iluvy wrote:

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

Hatznea leches is from Micha, and does refer to one's entire demeanor. Actions, thoughts, attitudes, dress, speech, etc.

But in the Torah we have "v'lo yihiyeh b'cha ervas davar" speaking specifically about covering body parts.

However, the question in the OP is based on a misconception: that we are people who happen to have a mitzvah somewhere attached to us to be tzanua.
That is understanding the concept of tznius incorrectly.

Tznius simply put is allowing our true selves, our neshamos, to shine through. It's the very foundation of living since our body is just an external container to hold our true selves. If you see the body as your essence, then you will question if there is an actual source for tznius. But if you think of yourself as the Godly part of you, it is inherent and obvious that it needs to be expressed in a Godly manner. In the externalities of dress, in the externalities of behavior, in the externalities of every facet of life in this world. It's so much enmeshed as a fundamental of being a neshama that there didn't need to be an 11th commandment: One must dress modestly. It's a given. So, yes, we do have commandments to ensure there is no unclad parts showing when they shouldn't, but that's almost an aside...it's to clarify that which we need outlined because we aren't so in touch with our spiritual selves....but it's secondary to the very metzius that we are our neshamos.

Hashem_Yaazor, you wrote that very beautifully, and it's very important not to lose sight of the "ta'am" of tznius. However, I think it's also very important to know that tznius is a mitzva like any other with specific halachos. "Expressing the Godly part of you in a Godly manner" can cover anything from a tasteful T-shirt and jeans to an all-encompassing burka.

Definitely! But it's not written in the Torah those exact guidelines besides the necessity for erva not to be shown. But that's why we have a mesora of Torah She'beal peh and subsequent rishonim, achronim, poskim, etc to know what is right to do...but that wouldn't help OP who wants something in Torah She'biksav Smile

I hope I didn't give the impression that the commentators and halacha we learn from them can be dismissed...I was trying to explain why it's not an easy to find mitzvah: simply because it was almost redundant to have such a passuk...

questioner

Thu, Dec 05 2013, 10:39 am

yonah wrote:

Oh, believe me, I have issues with that one too. Lighting candles and saying "asher kidishanu bemitzvosav VETZIVANU"? I still light but I've stopped saying the bracha.

That's a funny example to use - lighting candles is a mitzva d'rabbanan that noone would claim is explicitly written in the Torah. Why we make a bracha on mitzvos d'rabbannan and say "asher kidishanu bemitzvosav VETZIVANU" is an famous question.

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Dec 05 2013, 10:40 am

Simple1 wrote:

HY, in that case it's a mitzva for both men and women.

Precisely.

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Dec 05 2013, 10:45 am

"Lo yihiyeh b'cha ervas davar" is not a good enough passuk in the Torah?

What erva entails is where TSB"P comes in, but this is a TSB"K source.

Ruchel

Thu, Dec 05 2013, 11:42 am

My dh remembers tznius lessons on clothes and behaviour. Tznius is both genders, just different rules. Like shmiras eynaim also is both genders, but different rules.

Heyaaa

Thu, Dec 05 2013, 12:32 pm

My problem is that the the Jewish community makes a much bigger stink about the women's responsibility and they almost forget about the man's responsibility. There was an asifa 1 1/2 years back, acknowledging that there is a [filth] addiction crisis, but when else is it addressed? Instead, the focus is all on us women and makes me feel that it's more about putting women in our place, rather than trying to preserve the mitzva. I feel that women are the scapegoats for every problem. Whenever there is any problem, it's always the fault of all women. A man looks at [filth], it's bec a women made him. A woman can't have children, it's bec she doesn't cover her hair enough, (she should cover in the shower too as a zchus) or wears too bright clothes....Any problem, it's because a woman is sinning and the answer is usually tznius.

Also, it bothers me to no end when a woman wears boots in the winter, (for fashion) when there's no snow and the men stare and say 'she looks like a stripper, she is obviously trying to seduce me'. First of all what the men don't tell you is that there is a halacha that says that a man isn't allowed to look outside of his daled amos and if he saw your boots is because he was breaking that halacha. Second, once you're dressing according to basic halacha, you're in the clear and if someone decides to think s-xual things about you, he's wrong. We don't need to satisfy every man's fixation in order to be considered tznius.

Back to OP's question. The source I've always been given is 'vehatznei leches im hashem elokecha', but there are sources in the mishna brura and the shulchan aruch telling what the specifications are.

No, it's not a woman's mitzva. Bilam blessed us (or rather the malach blessed us) with the best blessing he could come up with 'ma tovu ohalecha yaakov, mishkinosecha yisrael', because what defines us as, is family purity. The family unit is the most sacred thing in Judaism. The love between a man and a wife is symbolic to the love between us and God so it's no wonder that it's so sacred. God lied to Avraham bec he didn't want their shalom bayit to suffer. God so badly wants that there be love in the family, that if a man uses his s-xuality for his own pleasure (by spilling his seed) and not with his wife in order to please her, there are huge repercussions. On the other hand, if a women uses her s-xuality for anyone apart from her husband, by dressing provocatively, there are also huge repercussions.

All Jews have a responsibility to make sure that we are kadosh. It's not a woman's mitzva, but rather a Jew's mitzva. Men need to do their part and we need do our part.

Tznius is how we, as women, maintain the kedusha. Men should not look at inappropriate scenes, and women shouldn't make themselves be scenes that would make men feel the need to look. We each need to do our part to meet the other halfway. There are basic halachot (and if you live in the right wing community, they are a lot less stringent than you think) which tell us how much effort we need to extend in order to keep the kedusha. We don't need to be tzanua for the sake of tzniut, but rather for the sake of kedusha, because the love between a man and a wife is sacred.

Last edited by Heyaaa on Thu, Dec 05 2013, 2:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

Peanut2

Thu, Dec 05 2013, 1:25 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

I don't understand what any of this means.

In my religion I do things based on mitzvot.

Maybe because I don't view my body as important I should walk around naked?

I know that there are halachot that concern how women dress, and I am wondering how people view tzniut. I think it's mainly custom (sometimes quite binding), and that there is absolute erva but also cultural standards, and lots of other things I don't want to expand on here. I was curious to see what people had to say.

I think it's pretty inherent to my neshama to not murder, but it's still a commandment.
I find it astonishing that you write this, but clearly other women believe this because you have five likes right now. This is a very non-halachic approach.

Feel free to explain more, though, because I'm not sure I understand.

Peanut2

Thu, Dec 05 2013, 1:29 pm

Just to clarify, I'm asking about sources for a mitzva.
The source does not have to be a pasuk from the Torah.

If someone asked me to show the source for a mitzva I would first turn to the Rambam, for example, and try to find it there. Does that make sense?

5*Mom

Thu, Dec 05 2013, 1:35 pm

yonah wrote:

I want a direct aseh or lo taaseh that tzniut for women is a stand alone mitzvah.

Who has told you that tzniut-for-women is a standalone mitzvah?

MaBelleVie

Thu, Dec 05 2013, 1:40 pm

Peanut2 wrote:

Did you look at what the rambam says about the pesukim that people mentioned?

marina

Thu, Dec 05 2013, 1:49 pm

Yeah, Lifnei Iver. Love that one.

This shabbos, please don't wear ugly clothes. And go on a diet. And don't wear shoes that are too expensive. Because if you do, I will be tempted to speak lashon harah about you or embarrass you in public. And, you know, that would be lifnei iver on your part.

Thx so very much.

black sheep

Thu, Dec 05 2013, 2:00 pm

Peanut2 wrote:

I completely understand what you are saying. this is the answer, to the best of my knowledge:

it says in the Torah, "Hinei Sarah Ba'Ohel," Behold, Sarah is in the tent. why was she in the tent for so long? obviously she was fixing her sheitel, so you can see from here that it is a mitzvah specifically for women to cover their hair specifically with a sheitel, and also to always cover their knees by four inches, especially when sitting.

Rambam expounds on this. he says that women should not go out of their houses more than once a month. why? because that's how long it takes to properly adjust their hair covering, and in addition to make sure their knees and elbows are properly covered.

Peanut2

Thu, Dec 05 2013, 2:22 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

Peanut2 wrote:

Did you look at what the rambam says about the pesukim that people mentioned?

Which pesukim?

I'm curious to know what your answer is?

MaBelleVie

Thu, Dec 05 2013, 2:33 pm

Peanut2 wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

Peanut2 wrote:

Did you look at what the rambam says about the pesukim that people mentioned?

Which pesukim?

I'm curious to know what your answer is?

"v'lo yir'eh b'cha ervas davar"

Edited to correct pasuk

iluvy

Thu, Dec 05 2013, 3:11 pm

marina wrote:

That's not how lifnei iver works. It's the complement of the issur: cause and effect. Don't tell me lashon hara, because that CAUSES me to hear it. But feel free to be fat and ugly, because not even a Gen Y'er could argue that this CAUSES me to tell lashon hara about you.

Nothing to do with temptation. Cause and effect.

yogabird

Thu, Dec 05 2013, 4:35 pm

yonah wrote:

I want a direct aseh or lo taaseh that tzniut for women is a stand alone mitzvah.

Thousands of halachos are learned out from pesukim using asmachtos, or one of the other yud-gimel midos shehatorah nidreshes bahen-the 13 hermeneutic principles. Not every "mitzva" is one of the 613 listed in any of the various versions of minyan hamitzvos.

Example: There is no pasuk stating "you shall eat 3 meals on the sabbath." this law is learned out from the narrative of the double portions of manna that fell on friday. Yet eating three meals on shabbos is considered a mitzvah d'oraisa.

sequoia

Thu, Dec 05 2013, 4:54 pm

Boots? Seduce? Huh????

pause

Thu, Dec 05 2013, 6:54 pm

questioner wrote:

yonah wrote:

Oh, believe me, I have issues with that one too. Lighting candles and saying "asher kidishanu bemitzvosav VETZIVANU"? I still light but I've stopped saying the bracha.

The answer is that it says in the Torah (Devarim 17: 11) "Al pi hatorah asher yorucha, v'al hamishpat asher yomru lecha ta'aseh, lo sassur min hadavar asher yagidu lecha yemin u'smol."
Paraphrased that means that there is a mitzvas d'oraisa of following and obeying the rabbanim, specifically bais din hagadol in anything that they command us. This includes obviously mitzvos d'rabbanan.
(I think it's the ramban who says this.)

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Dec 05 2013, 10:38 pm

Peanut2 wrote:

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

You're right, this is not the halachic approach, this is the hashkafic approach to understand why we have the halacha, but I am not a teacher and don't know how to develop my thought process well Smile

Basically, I was trying to get to the root of the question. The reason we have questions is because we're in this world, not the world above where everything is clear. I am trying to get a little deeper into our spiritual selves to gain some more clarity, but esoteric things for me are hard to put into words.

My premise is different than yours.
Your premise seems to be "I'm a person. I have a body. I have a soul. I am Jewish. Because I am Jewish, I also have commandments to keep."
My premise seems to be "I'm a person which by definition means my soul. I have a body just to contain the soul in this world, but my soul is my essence. As a Jewish soul, my body should try to accentuate my soul. Everything I do should be from my soul and be done with the G-dly character traits that it came from."
Because our neshama is just an extension of Hashem...what we do and how we live are not separate from the extra obligations of mitzvos. Mitzvos ARE our lives. Of course I have a physical body and do need to nurture it and care for it, but only in the context that it's purely a container for my true being.

Tznius is not an added thing to our total person of soul+body. It is actually a way of expressing our true selves, our soul. The halachos of covering the body are almost an aside...it's to give guidelines of what parts of our bodies may and may not be revealed, but to me that's one aspect of tznius. If we viewed ourselves as the extension of G-d He created us as, it would be automatic, it would be obvious, that we would live our life as tzanua as possible. This is a struggle I am trying to remind myself to focus on, as I'm not in touch with my spiritual being as much as I would like. I can write post after post but that doesn't help me feel it as much...but that, to me, is the answer to your question. You are only questioning because of an incorrect assumption (that we all have, believe me!) -- when we start viewing ourselves the way we should be, we wouldn't have this question.

I know this is still esoteric, but I'm trying my best to get my thoughts on ~~paper~~ screen.

Regarding other mitzvos, those aren't ways of life that would necessarily be as obvious, though we think it should be since we do live in a society where murder is not accepted. Not all societies and cultures were like that, and that may have been a reason it had to be clearly stated. But living a life where the soul shines through should be part and parcel of everyday living, not one more thing to do or not do. It's just the way we are...or should be.