Do you use separate stovetops for milichig and fleishig?

amother

Thu, Jun 19 2014, 8:06 pm

amother wrote:

I know this is off topic. But it really rubs me the wrong way. Ladies, how many of you agree with this view of all rabbanim as infallible? I find it very odd. Growing up, we were taught that a Talmid Chacham- and indeed, to a degree, any person- deserved our respect. There is no concept of papal infallibility in torAh. Not even for the gedolei hador. And semicha / the title of rav / some followers certainly does not confer upon someone the status of gadol hador.
Anon bc this newfangled adulation of anything rabbinic is a pet peeve of mine and people know it.

Actually, I agree with you when it is done in a respectful manner. Starting the discussion off that my rav has OCD based on nothing discounts anything further that poster says.

My rav is open to discussing halahic opinions contrary to his own. We discussed the fact that others (Satmar) can burn out their ovens and have one cooktop.

amother

Thu, Jun 19 2014, 8:22 pm

mummiedearest wrote:

op, did your rav say it's necessary for kashrus reasons? no. even by your argument, it is not halacha in terms of kashrus. you said he said it wouldn't look good in your community not to have these things. I assume this is more in line with the idea that rich people should live in a manner that respects their financial status. not sure it's halacha, though. and it's not a kashrus issue.

The discussion started off as kashrus reasons. As I discussed in my last post, Satmar allows burning out ovens. When he said it doesn't look nice, I took that to mean that if I couldn't afford the ovens then he might be OK with burning out my oven. Since it makes no meaningful difference to us then why not?

My rav is OK with us generally living below our means. He has never expressed an opinion that encouraged us to spend except for when doing a mitzvah.

Frumdoc

Fri, Jun 20 2014, 2:38 am

One sink, you use cheap plastic washing up bowls inside the sink, one for each, and the sink itself is treif. You never put anything directly in the sink, just tip the water from the bowl into it after washing up. The underneath of the bowl is also considered treif.

I still use washing up bowls for both my sinks because it seems cleaner to me, I don't like things touching the sink that has all sorts washed down it and is bleached regularly, but I have a wierd thing about it.

chani8

Fri, Jun 20 2014, 3:09 am

yo'ma wrote:

This woman came to my house yesterday and she asked me what I use my stove for because she thought it has to be separate. I wanted to see what others say. I think she's a bt and she became with chabad because she said her kids used to go to chabad. Now they're not in a chabad school, but I don't know what they consider themselves.

Chabad use separate everything.

No, you don't need separate stove tops.

We have two stove tops but use them both for both, but throw away anything that drops out of the pan if the stove top isn't spotless at the time.

We use two ovens, for both. We use one microwave, for both. We use glass cups and pans, for both. One dishwasher, for both. One sink. All counters are for both.

Just keep things clean and there's no problem.

Two garbage cans though, of course. Wink

Raisin

Fri, Jun 20 2014, 3:23 am

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

Really? I know many people who have tiny kitchens in their houses. That's in the U.S., where houses are big. I was under the impression that kitchens in Europe are generally smaller; is this contrary to your experience?

Anyway, even if you have the room, kitchen renovations can be very expensive. In my area, it can cost 70K or more even for seemingly simple renovations. If a couple is struggling to pay the mortgage --- and, of course, Yeshiva tuition --- how can they afford that kind of renovation for what is essentially a chumrah?

And what about all those people who live in apartments all their lives? What are they supposed to do?

True, not everyone can afford to redo their kitchen. Although its certainly possible to do a kitchen for less then 70k. People who prefer separate stoves and ovens but have little space or money get toaster ovens and plug in electric rings. For years my mother cooked dairy food on an electric ring, till she redid her kitchen and got two stove tops.

I agree if you are already spending a lot of money on a large luxury kitchen it is silly not to spend the extra money on a another stove and oven. It may not be more kosher but it is certainly more convenient. You can make pizza for supper and cook shabbos at the same time.

Kind of baffled at the three microwaves.

Raisin

Fri, Jun 20 2014, 3:30 am

chani8 wrote:

we lived in a apartment for the first few years and I think (can't remember, getting old) and we used one stovetop for both meat and dairy. Same sink.

We do have one counter in our present kitchen that we use for cold dairy and hot meat.

Joyinthemorning, Europe is a big place. In England (and other parts of Europe, such as where I live) a lot of people live in suburban areas in big houses. We don't all live in city centre apartments! I live in a 6 bedroom house with a nice sized kitchen. Its a bigger house then a lot of people but most people have less bedrooms but a similar sized kitchen.

JoyInTheMorning

Fri, Jun 20 2014, 4:06 am

Raisin, I was told by many people that in my area of the US (not NYC), if you do any kitchen renovation that involves moving water pipes or gas pipes or electrical wiring, and you want it to be code-compliant, it is going to be at least 70K. I'm not talking about moving the cabinets or putting in an extra counter

5mom

Fri, Jun 20 2014, 4:08 am

For the rav who insists on 2 stovetops and multiples of everything - ask him what his grandmother had.

The "it doesn't look nice" rationale distorts religion by confusing halacha with sociology. A very dangerous, but unfortunately common, tendency in some circles. And it's helped along by people who would rather outsource their frumkeit than learn halacha for themselves.

Raisin

Fri, Jun 20 2014, 4:18 am

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

most people have electric sockets in all areas of the kitchen. We have an electric hob for dairy for this reason, since moving the gas would be too expensive. (and so do many other people I know)

amother

Fri, Jun 20 2014, 4:21 am

5mom wrote:

This has become the community standard.

Ruchel

Fri, Jun 20 2014, 5:13 am

My parents have a big house and don't have all this... I never knew a lot of this was a "thing" until internet. Don't get me started on Pessach kitchen. If I had that kind of money I would give to tzedaka and not toward a week per year.

Not all suburbs are green and with houses, some are quiiiite city like, with 20 floor buildings.

JoyInTheMorning

Fri, Jun 20 2014, 5:20 am

Raisin wrote:

most people have electric sockets in all areas of the kitchen. We have an electric hob for dairy for this reason, since moving the gas would be too expensive. (and so do many other people I know)

That will work for an individual burner. It will not work for a whole stovetop, because you need venting and exhaust fans. And many people don't want to use individual burners because they are not particularly stable or safe. Besides those issues, I also have limited counter space. It would be a real hassle for me to clear off my counter to make room for a dairy burner and to make sure there are no inflammable materials around.

My feeling is that having separate stovetops or burners is not a halachic requirement, so don't push it on me.

I would be interested to get Fox's input on this thread. To me this seems like one of the many things that have happened in the last ten / twenty years that make living as an Orthodox Jew so expensive. It discourages young couples from looking for simple apartments or houses with small kitchens: why should they settle for something that is "less kosher"?

It's not less kosher. It's just as kosher. It may be less convenient. But our rabbanim are not there to pasken about convenience in the kitchen.

Ruchel

Fri, Jun 20 2014, 5:38 am

Quote:

It discourages young couples from looking for simple apartments or houses with small kitchens:

Still, I see charedi families (and of course others) in tiny apartments. Unless one is willing to live very out of town, and still. Where I live now? about 75% of Jews are in social apartment. My dh had a friend who had a huuuuge house, but it took 2 h each way to go to school. I think there was a shul 1 h by feet.. no Jewish neighbours obv for this large charedi family. BH for my apartment!

Rubber Ducky

Fri, Jun 20 2014, 5:45 am

There are some types of cooktops that are harder to kasher. Glass smoothtop cooktops have been the source of shailas for a long time, and I once had a client with solid metal burner hobs that she always kept covered with flame tamers because (she said) they were not kasherable.

sky

Fri, Jun 20 2014, 6:04 am

The new homes in Lakewood typically have large kitchens that are designed for the Jewish family and come with 2 ovens, microwaves, sinks and dishwashers standard.
Most apartments built for Jewish couples come with 2 sinks.

I live in a house with one sink. Nothing ever goes in the sink. If it is waiting to be washed it goes next to the sink. (and because it is disgusting nothing really ever sits). Most of my meat stuff goes right in the dishwasher to wash anyway.
I have to make sure the sink is relatively clean between washing milk and meat because if chicken was cleaned in the sink and there was some pieces hanging around (sounds disgusting) I can't pour a very hot coffee on top.
When I have a lot of stuff to wash I use a rack in the sink, and when I need to soak stuff I have a bucket for the sink. mainly only after shabbos.

Raisin

Fri, Jun 20 2014, 6:10 am

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

Afaik it is not a halachic requirement. And I would be very surprised if a rav told someone with no money that they had to go out and buy new ovens or remodel their kitchen.

The reality is that many frum families have lots of kids and cook a lot and (since they have lots of kids) often live in large houses with large kitchens, so having 2 separate ovens and stoves makes a lot of sense.

When you actually know the halachos of kashrus you can be a lot more lenient I think.

Liba

Fri, Jun 20 2014, 6:15 am

We had a kosher kitchen with one sink and one stove. Then we moved into a home with three sinks, a place for a stove/oven and a spot for two burners on the milchig counter.

I can't express how much easier the new kitchen is, even though it isn't bigger. We have so many fewer shaylos, an easier time keep pareve things pareve and when things fall onto the stove top, it is still kosher.

Would I remodel a kitchen to get what I have now? Only if I could afford it and the kitchen was falling apart.

Do I appreciate what I have now though? 100%!!