Why is this ok with everyone??? (Double buckling)

SplitPea

Tue, Jul 29 2014, 4:54 am

In a crash every improperly restrained passenger becomes a projectile and puts the lives of those others in the car at risk.

I question if double buckling is safer than not buckling at all actually. In a fresh with a certain amount of G force (think 30 mph) the bodies will be squished together. There is a chance they will be impailed onto each other! I would take my chances at being thrown from the car than a tangles mess of bodies squished together.

Oh and we will most likely never carpool for this reason. In my own car I often do crazy things above and beyond the requirement of the law. But in others cars if they can't at least follow the LAW 100% of the time my kids won't ride with them.

SplitPea

Tue, Jul 29 2014, 5:03 am

freidasima wrote:

Huh? A booster for a child who is no longer in a car seat (over the age of around 4 depending on size) is a relatively small contraption that costs between 30-50 shekel. That's less than $10 for the cheaper kind which we have for our grandchildren and it's just fine. You can't afford $10 for a booster? This is not something disposable, Ours has lasted now for two years and will certainly last longer and we take our grandchildren in the car almost daily so it's not that it isn't getting used.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/....._QL70

Less than $14 dollars. If you can't afford it go to your shul and explain to your rabbi you can't afford a booster for your child and need $14. Beg on the street outside a grocery store. Call and straight up ask a friend to give you the money. Do whatever you have to for your child's safety.

Basya

Tue, Jul 29 2014, 5:50 am

Quote:

I dont see the relevance to how I buckle my kids. If you asked me to do something and I agreed then why wouldnt you let me take your kid in my car buckled into car seat/booster.

The relevance is - If double buckling or kids not in buckles let alone boosters are okay with you - I have to wonder WHAT ELSE is okay with you???? Is running a stop sign ok, because you didn't see anyone coming? Speeding because you don't see a cop, or there is no one on the roads (I could go on and on and on).

Here is where this is coming from - Backyard daycamp going on a trip - 25 min away - in the 9 days!! Now mind you I did HOURS, DAYS, WEEKS of research in finding out about this camp for my daughter - and yet, somehow, even though I asked about trips etc. the fact that occasionally they would use other methods (not bussing) to transport kids to a trip.
So here are my choices at this point:
1) Send my kid with a booster and strict instructions and hold my breath.
2) Block my entire day (take off work) to go along on a trip I have absolutely no interest in attending so that I can drive my child (and some others).
3) Keep my (to be devastated) child home from the trip.

As of right now leaning towards option 2. However, it kept me up till 3am being so annoyed that I have to deal with this. Besides the point is that why do 6&7 year olds need trips in a backyard camp, and does a "few trips" over the summer, mean a trip every week?

SplitPea

Tue, Jul 29 2014, 6:50 am

Basya wrote:

Quote:

I dont see the relevance to how I buckle my kids. If you asked me to do something and I agreed then why wouldnt you let me take your kid in my car buckled into car seat/booster.

Option 4. Explain to th camp what they are doing is Against the law and endangering the lives of children. Even if YOURS is buckled your child is still in danger in a crash because of the other improperly buckled children. Ask them to ensure every single child is buckled in accordance with the LAW or you will be forced to speak to a rav. (Ie get permission to talk to child services etc)

Barbara

Tue, Jul 29 2014, 6:56 am

amother wrote:

Because we don't have a big enough car. Because we put thousands into a used 8 passenger minivan so we would not have to double buckle but it broke down a few months after we bought it and the cost to repair was astronomical. Because we needed a vehicle so we bought a cheaper minivan, but it only has 7 seats.

And why do I have kids I can't afford? Well, as I said, we WERE able to afford the van to fit them - just not able to repair it (almost as much as it cost to buy) or replace it with another. (We're still paying off that van, BTW.)

Not because I don't know better. Not because I don't care. It hurts to do it, but it hurt much more when we were stuck at home for weeks. There is not a decent park in walking distance. The Jewish day camp is a highway drive away. There are no local friends.

Why are some kids not in boosters? Because we lent some to a friend and never got them back. We cannot afford to replace them. And yes, I know about priorities in money. Diapers and food come first. I am truly sorry. And you would keep your kids home from camp to be able to afford the boosters (which will help the one child who should be in a booster and is not double-buckled; you can't double buckle a booster obviously).

If you want to donate an 8-passenger van, or better a 12-passenger van with some safety features, I would be thrilled.

In the meantime, please don't judge me.

I know it's not safe, but it wasn't a societal crime when I was a child. We were double buckled all the time, and nobody thought twice. Now I do it regretfully, and I am tarred and feathered for it.

And not only would I respect someone's wish not to double buckle their child, I would NEVER double buckle someone else's child unless that parent was so desperate for me to take their child that THEY asked me to.

You want honest answers to your questions?

YES. I would keep my children home from camp in order to afford booster seats. No child ever died because he spent a boring summer home from camp. Children die, or are seriously injured, because they are not properly restrained in a car.

The Graco high back booster, which converts into a backless booster, is $35 on Amazon; there's a Cosco high back booster at K-Mart for $25.50. WADR, I find it difficult to believe that someone can afford to send her kids to camp and can afford a car, but $22 is the difference between eating and not eating. Nevertheless, that's what you said. If you promise me that you use it for that one child you refer to as needing to be in the booster, I will gladly order a booster to be sent to you. Just PM me your address. Trust me, I've a rule against meeting people from online, so I won't appear at your door. a box from Amazon will.

And yes, I'd stay home and be bored rather than buying a car in which my children couldn't ride safely. I'd save and wait until I could afford a larger car.

When I was a kid, there were no car seats, and no one even wore seat belts. We climbed back and forth over the seats while the car was in motion. Everyone's mother smoked, and teenage girls would put baby oil on their skin to get the best possible tan. We learned. We learned because people died, or were seriously injured.

You've made your decisions. In a decision between how much "it hurt" to stay at home with your kids over the summer, and the increased risk of one or more of your children dying because they're improperly restrained, you've deciding that the hurt of being stuck at home is greater.

gp2.0

Tue, Jul 29 2014, 7:06 am

People do it because while they were growing up (in the 60's, 70's, 80's) the seat belt and car seat laws were different. So they figure if it was fine then it's fine now, figuring their anecdotal evidence is better than hundreds (thousands?) of studies.

Would I trust my child's grandmother (mil) to buckle her into the car seat I provide? Yes, because we have a good relationship and I know she will respect my wishes, even though she thinks I'm overreacting and to her the only good reason to buckle is to avoid tickets. (So when our first was a baby DH had no idea how important car seats were.) A carpool...it would really depend on how well we know each other, but generally, if you provide the seat and install it, I can't see why they wouldn't cooperate with five-second buckling.

Another factor is the age of the child, if you teach your children how important it is to be buckled then they will kick up a fuss until they're buckled in. Until of course they get to the age where they wanna do what everyone else in the carpool is doing and then you have a problem.

Basya

Tue, Jul 29 2014, 7:22 am

So update- I tried Option 4 (as another poster suggested) - and basically the camp said "other mothers in the past have offered to double buckle kids in their car - it's very common". Gee thanks - that helps. Rolling Eyes

Then, when they heard how adamant I was, they said they have someone else (family member) who can help drive so that there will be enough seats. So now the question is - do I feel safer? Or do I go back to my original question - if double buckling is no big deal to them - do I trust them as a driver for my child? Would you trust any other parent - that you don't know - to drive your kid - even if your child is in a booster?
And on top of that I have the small voice in my head that keeps repeating - "it's the 9 days - don't do what you don't feel comfortable with".
I expressed my feelings about a trip in the 9 days - and the response was - its just all the way down the main road - people drive on the main road during the 9 days! Rolling Eyes

Regarding splitting the drive with another parent - I know this sounds crazy but I don't know the other parents in the camp! I actually know 1 - but I know she has a crazy schedule and would never go for it - heck - maybe she's ok with double buckling too!

So my frustration is really why am I the only parent that really cares... Why am I the only parent that when being told about any camp trip has a knee jerk reaction to ask - "how are you getting there?".

end of vent.

amother

Tue, Jul 29 2014, 7:43 am

I'm the mother who said she can't afford a booster. Let me clarify. This is for a 6 yo who is sitting with a lap belt in the center seat. The 3/4 yo are in boosters. The problem is that those two have belt positioning boosters, and then I would need 3 boosters across in the back row. I would need to purchase 3 harness boosters (more expensive than belt positioning) because otherwise it is impossible to reach the buckle. Yes, we've tried to put a small booster there.

Are you offering to sponsor three harness boosters? And make sure they can be properly installed 3 across in a Kia minivan? And what of the two poor kids that have to double buckle?

I'm impressed that you'd keep your kids at home permanently until you can afford a larger car. That means NO park, NO grocery shopping, NO seeing Bubby and Zaidy, NO other frum kids to play with, NO going to a friend for Shabbos (they are too young to go alone), NO trips. And it wouldn't just be the summer, it would be all year. We are not paying for camp, for those who are wondering.

I'm not sure why I'm getting so defensive here - I think I feel like the mother in the "sending daughter to public school" thread. I'm making an admittedly bad decision because I don't feel like there is any choice. All of those being armchair quarterbacks might be better served helping others with solutions instead of judging them harshly.

lavendar

Tue, Jul 29 2014, 7:45 am

Honestly I wouldn't feel safer bec they offered to get another driver. the fact that as a day camp they are responsible for other ppls kids and didnt think on there own to be as safe as possible really bothers me. if they want to be lax with there own kids safety that's there choice but as heads of a day camp they should be going above and beyond to protect the children. that lax attitude in parents and teachers that drive me nuts . If you can't find another camp now please don't send there again. If ur asking me I wouldn't send her or I would just go along . Good luck ! Many ppl have called me crazy & a first time mom . They say things like just wait till u have three or four but in my opinion becoming like that as ur family grows means u have more kids then u can handle I hope I don't ever become like those moms.

HonesttoGod

Tue, Jul 29 2014, 7:51 am

I don't even understand double buckling because I would never let more kids than the amount of seats in my car.

And when ds school bus admittedly told me they have 25 kids in a 15 passenger van and that is why ds is not being strapped in I said deal with that THIS MINUTE otherwise I dispute all the school fees on my credit card.
Well they dealt with it quickly and now he gets strapped in.
Am I happy that he is not in a car seat? No I fight every. single. day. But I have no other choice since he has to be on transportation. I keep praying today will be the day they let me put a car seat on the van and that the teacher has the patience to strap him in properly.

It sickens me that my kid is so unsafe every day Sad

Basya

Tue, Jul 29 2014, 7:52 am

Quote:

If it's really close, why don't you drop her off and pick her up- you don't need to take off all day for that.

Camp is 15 min drive away from me. Then the trip is 25 min down the road from them.

Not changing camps at this point. Will do some serious thinking before next year.

Looks like I will have to suck it up and go along...

Quote:

the fact that as a day camp they are responsible for other ppls kids and didnt think on there own to be as safe as possible really bothers me. if they want to be lax with there own kids safety that's there choice but as heads of a day camp they should be going above and beyond to protect the children. that lax attitude in parents and teachers that drive me nuts .
If ur asking me I wouldn't send her or I would just go along . Good luck ! Many ppl have called me crazy & a first time mom . They say things like just wait till u have three or four but in my opinion becoming like that as ur family grows means u have more kids then u can handle I hope I don't ever become like those moms.

Thanks - it makes me feel so much better that I am not the only one who feels exactly this way.

Raisin

Tue, Jul 29 2014, 7:53 am

amother wrote:

I don't know what I would do in your position. BH our car is big enough for all our kids. Obviously, there is no solution if you don't have a spare $10000 or whatever an 8 seater costs. Maybe it would make financial sense to get another very small car so when you take family trips you can drive one and your husband can drive one.

When we have family visiting we go on a trip to a place that is also accessibly by public transport so we can all go. Even if it just one extra person. Its a pain in the neck, I admit. We are lucky enough to live in a place with public transport - I know in many american cities that is very uncommon.

I would scrimp on other things to buy the car seats though. Car seats, even expensive ones, shouldn't cost more then a couple of hundred dollars. Would you not buy diapers or food for your kids if you were short of cash?

MaBelleVie

Tue, Jul 29 2014, 8:08 am

HonesttoGod wrote:

Did you look up the laws in your state? I would go from that angle (although unfortunately many states have laws that are far from safe Sad

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