Why do women want to put on Tefilin?

Dolly Welsh

Sat, Jun 27 2015, 9:38 pm

etky wrote:

Women are uncomfortable b/c they often pick up on the vibe that they are interlopers in the "mens club" or not really wanted or not considered equal to the task at hand b/c of their gender.
OTOH , when a previously male only preserve is opened up to women it often makes that space appear less prestigious and thus less desirable to men who often depart on droves. This has happened in the more liberal denominations of Judaism and is also well-documented in some Protestant denominations like the Church of England that have opened up the ministry to women.

Etky has said it better than I could. They leave.

But Etky has said it's about prestige. I think it's deeper and more subtle. And I don't think it's bad. It's just the way it is. And it's just as useful for women to have their own spaces as for men to have theirs.

It is odd I should have to defend that idea on a woman-only forum.

Anybody who wants to kibbitz with fellow Jews of both genders has plenty of websites available to do that on, yet we are here.

We face G-d alone is a female perspective. Men don't face G-d alone in the exact same way.

That this is mysterious doesn't make it bad.

The twitchiness and insecure sense of being "Lesser" is coming out of us. It's WE who have to think well of ourselves in our own clubhouse. It's inside. Not outside.

etky

Sat, Jun 27 2015, 10:00 pm

Just to clarify - though the feminizing effect has been established regarding a variety of professions, religions and social groups, I think that regarding Orthodox Judaism its effect will be at least somewhat attenuated due to the high committment level that is required of males no matter what.
I don't think the club house reason is good enough to deny women the spiritual and intellectual gratification (as in the ordination of women as rabbis) that they crave within Orthodoxy. Sure there might be a corrective pendulum effect initially but hopefully it will swing back and then stabilize somewhere in the middle. In any case, its no reason to perpetuate denying women what halacha would allow them especially since in Orthodox Judaism - as opposed to the more liberal trends - there will never be complete gender equality or overlap. There are other reasons perhaps to be wary of this trend but this is not one of them IMO.

Dolly Welsh

Sat, Jun 27 2015, 11:18 pm

Nobody can have total authority. That would be despotism and unbalanced.

There is no way, no way at all, to take away woman's power, as a woman. She is the only mother you are going to have. She has power within the home. She has tremendous zxual power, well, among straight men anyway.

Also giving her rabbinic power would give her two levels of power where she had only one before. This would make her more powerful than men, who would still only have what they had before.

That may be the reason the men flee. And they don't amble out slow and casual. They FLEE.

Because they don't want to be crushed. As military beings they understand when they are out-powered, and they skedaddle fast.

Quite reasonably. In their place, you would too.

As for spiritual and intellectual gratification, there are no real barriers to those things.

There's no halacha against over-dosing on oatmeal, but watching other people's uniformly bad experience makes us wary of going that way. We can benefit by looking at the disastrous, failing strategies of the liberal streams of Judaism. They have shown us what happens.

The idea that "this time it will work" is exactly the kind of delusional idealism that makes us good mothers and not so good at life's more cynical and nasty tasks which I am not going to list.

We can simply look at what happens and exercise some prudence and good and proper fear. Fear is not always bad.

etky

Sat, Jun 27 2015, 11:36 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

They don't. They are supposed to stand with nine others like themselves. Ideally.

Women have and need clubhouses too. This forum is one.

Mixing is fine and separation is fine too; can't one have both?

The problem is that it's not just neutral "separation" as in "separate but equal" or at least equatable. It's exclusion from entire areas of the religion, beyond what it absolutely halachically necessary and it's the removal of women from positions of religious authority and power even over themselves.
I'm not saying that the solution is simple or that there wouldn't be a price to pay. But the issues need to be explored and deliberated and not dismissed off the bat because of theoretical repurcussions that may or may not materialize. There will also be repercussions for Orthodoxy if committed women who desire more latiitude are turned away, especially for sociological reasons like the "clubhouse".

Dolly Welsh

Sun, Jun 28 2015, 12:02 am

"a price to pay" is a very big admission on your part.

Almost all mitzvoth that are required of a Jew are required of Jewish women.

I don't think Jewish women are exempt from very much at all except time fixed prayer. If Jewish women had to drop their babies in the middle of a nurse, a diaper change, or a cuddle, because of time fixed prayer, Judaism would have lasted exactly one generation.

You don't see Jewish women buying ham sandwiches on Saturday, for instance.

All Jews have power over themselves. All Jews are released on their own recognizance. My Rav says "every Jew can bless," meaning, me. He was telling me I could bless someone, right to my face. Some man was saying I couldn't, but my Rav set him straight. I was so happy.

I have never had as much power as I have now, after becoming Orthodox.

Any Orthodox-raised Jewish woman who wants to become Conservative, or Reform can, and some have, and nobody died. I came in. They went out. So what.

You have to leave something functional for us BTs. That liberal streams didn't work for us. Don't our cravings matter too? We are Jews too. We are women too.

Of course repercussions will materialize. You are backing off what you said so well earlier.

You are thinking exactly like our ancestress Chava, who also thought things would just have to work out SOMEHOW, wouldn't they? Wouldn't they? I mean come ON. It's just a blasted apple and what's so terrible about knowing things. She also craved knowledge and authority and clarity and grandeur and riding on clouds. That didn't work out so well, did it. Repercussions materialized.

OUR Akeda is sacrificing our fabulous intellectual executive talents to do something quieter and more modest, but which is more useful long term.

ora_43

Sun, Jun 28 2015, 1:12 am

HindaRochel and Etky - an example of what I was thinking of could be boys at school. It used to be that boys were privileged in school, in part because teachers subconsciously viewed them as stronger students. Today, boys tend to have more problems in school (while still being privileged in some ways), in part because stereotypical "boy" behavior is now viewed as problematic - boys are way more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD, more likely to be disciplined, less likely to graduate.

I know this is a controversial example, but I think it's a good one because it shows how there can be a problem that has nothing to do with men not wanting to hang out in a "girly" space. There can be a problem because the characteristics seen as "good" are possessed by more girls than boys (/women than men). And I think that's probably part of the issue in liberal churches and synagogues - more women than men appreciate the emotion/experience-focused dynamic, and more women than men are able to see themselves as "good" according to community standards.

eta - I agree with etky that this is not a reason to keep women out. This is just a spinoff of dolly's comment re: lower male participation in reform shuls.

etky

Sun, Jun 28 2015, 4:22 am

Dolly, I get what you're saying about the need to uphold gender distinctions but I do think that Orthodoxy - even ultra-Othodoxy - will not forever be able to keep a lid on the aspirations of increasingly informed and educated women to whom the dissonance between every other area in their life and their status in Judaism is painful. If little flexibility is shown then I forsee, at some point down the road, a split in Modern Orthodoxy on the issue of inclusiveness and increasingly repressive measures against women in ultra-Orthodoxy like driving bans, tzniut strictures etc. Society and gender relations in the western world have irrevocably changed. We can either hide from this fact or carry on a conversation regarding how this sea change can find expression within halacha in a way that can accomodate the needs of both genders. Modern Orthodoxy has already incorporated some of these changes, to my mind with great success, and I would like to see this trend continue- carefully, because there are indeed potential pitfalls. Growth entails risk.

HindaRochel

Sun, Jun 28 2015, 6:55 am

ora_43 wrote:

If you are talking about "War on Boys" it is controversial and has been debunked by other studies. Of course the debunking has been argued with as well so there's that.

In terms of ADHD, one can look at the other side and see that girls are [/quote]under diagnosed and their issues ignored.

Active children, on the whole, and those who aren't school-normative (sit learn regurgitate), are likely to suffer. Boys will still often get more support, even if it is the wrong sort of support, while girls are further deligitamized, both because they are being "bad" and because their behavior isn't feminine.

The idea that boys in the past could run about more and play is about recess, and was applicable to all children. School was very structured during certain periods of time, and poorer students, those who couldn't sit still and learn, were probably out of school very quickly and working.

Also, what historical period, what class, where? It is important to remember that "used to be" is highly dependent on where, when, who etc.

ora_43 wrote:

I know this is a controversial example, but I think it's a good one because it shows how there can be a problem that has nothing to do with men not wanting to hang out in a "girly" space. There can be a problem because the characteristics seen as "good" are possessed by more girls than boys (/women than men). And I think that's probably part of the issue in liberal churches and synagogues - more women than men appreciate the emotion/experience-focused dynamic, and more women than men are able to see themselves as "good" according to community standards.

Perhaps. Have you read Shir haShirim? Poetry was once the primarily in the hands of men. Society might expect a different response but that doesn't mean the response is more natural to one or the other. What you are actually seeing is the conflict between outside and inside society.

But putting on tefillin is about feeling connected to Hashem, and that should be true for men or women. In terms of going to shul, women are often the ones kept silent while men are loud, emotional, singing and dancing. So they are already expressing this in shul, it is women who are constrained.

Women asking to take part in the ritual aren't seeking to undo what is there, just take part of it.

I don't know what your image is of liberal synagogues, but they aren't all that much different in actuality to what goes on in regular shuls. I've non-religious relatives and, while I haven't gone to regular services I have seen them in action, and it really isn't that much different. Everyone sits together is the big thing, maybe more singing, and maybe the Rabbi is more philosophical rather than literal in talking about mitzvot. I guess it would depend on which shul you were speaking of, but I don't know that they are so different. I could be wrong, maybe they are extremely different, as I've only seen a few services.

[quote="ora_43"]eta - I agree with etky that this is not a reason to keep women out. This is just a spinoff of dolly's comment re: lower male participation in reform shuls.

Dolly Welsh

Sun, Jun 28 2015, 12:35 pm

Hinda Ruchel, as you say, you have seen only a few non-frum services, and in the company of people you are related to, which positively colored your view. You didn't see these services as so terrible. So it's a little more funsy, and a little less challenge-y, a little less "thou shalt, and thou shalt not". So what, you say. Big deal.

Well, look at the results. Results matter, don't they?

How can somebody as smart as you be seduced by short-term pleasantness and overlook long term bad consequences?

How many of that group of people have numerous unmarried grown-ups and what is the family size of the marrieds? Lots, and small.

What about the generation after that? The young'uns have less Jewish engagement, right?

If there are any third generationers, what's their Jewish engagement? Even less, right?

What was the median age of the people in the synagogue you attended, Hinda Ruchel? Well over 40 and more like 50, right?

When Judaism is reduced to an occasional - not weekly, just occasional - night of singing and philosophical chat, it finds itself competing with all the other things that are pleasant and fun.

Over time, there is more variety and expertly programmed excitement in those things.

Can religion compete with TV? Of course it can't. The best talents of the age are crafting TV. I was just reading about "pitch correcting software". They can perfect singing way beyond the atonal home-made sounds of your mixed singing congregation.

Communal comfort-zoning isn't enough.

Not over time. Not generation after generation.

People used to think bagels, snarky comedy, and the labor movement were Judaism. That was indeed their Judaism. But their children weren't into bagels, and didn't find themselves living their parent's outdated stories. They listened politely but those stories weren't their lives, they were history. They drifted away, snarking faintly into the distance, until they Seinfelded themselves right out of sight, and disappeared.

That can happen to you. That can happen to yours.

Maybe good stuff has a price?

Of course it does.

We all know high-end clothes cost more, and have to cost more. That, we understand. That, we accept. Well, that's true across the board.

HindaRochel

Mon, Jun 29 2015, 7:53 am

ora_43 wrote:

HindaRochel - I think this is getting way beyond the original point, which was just that men leaving "female spaces" isn't just a matter of men devaluing women, or devaluing stereotypically feminine traits. IE, they're not leaving because they have fragile egos, or think girls have cooties, or whatever else.

It is because they feel uncomfortable in a place sharing. It is hard to imagine why they are uncomfortable. This is especially true of something like wearing Tefillin or learning Gemara or whatever.

They aren't actually being asked to give up space. We weren't talking about a mixed minyan. Just women putting on tefillin.

Most anyone feels uncomfortable, if they are significantly different than most others in a particular group. However, historically, men have left spheres where women entered in greater numbers because those spheres were then considered "lesser" some ways. When speaking of the working sphere, financial renumeration went down, often by a great deal.

Sometimes this was deliberate as the case was with teachers. They worked the same hours, same skill set, got paid less.

Also typist/secretarial work.

Historically when women entered a given field the pay scale went down because the field was open to women for that reason. It was also devalued.

You cannot walk away from the idea that in the eyes of many women were lesser, less valued, less important, less wanted.

Haven't we read that enough on this board where girls are the lesser desired child?

Again, it hasn't to do with wanting "our own space" which can be a private club. It is the fear of women doing what they can do.

Which is exactly what a TOI blogger stated, a male, stated, though I forget the bloggers name.

There isn't anything special for us (whine) so why should we play?

HindaRochel

Mon, Jun 29 2015, 8:22 am

You make so many assumptions that it is difficult to know where to begin but at the start shall we?

Dolly Welsh wrote:

I never said I enjoyed the groups. Nor did I view them positively. I took issue with how you were viewing them.

Well, look at the results. Results matter, don't they?

Dolly Welsh wrote:

How can somebody as smart as you be seduced by short-term pleasantness and overlook long term bad consequences?

I wasn't. I didn't enjoy the services or take part. I found them odd. But the people in them were sincere.

Dolly Welsh wrote:

How many of that group of people have numerous unmarried grown-ups and what is the family size of the marrieds? Lots, and small.

What about the generation after that? The young'uns have less Jewish engagement, right?

If there are any third generationers, what's their Jewish engagement? Even less, right?

What was the median age of the people in the synagogue you attended, Hinda Ruchel? Well over 40 and more like 50, right?

I didn't survey, I wasn't there for that. There were young children, and older people. One group was in a senior citizen center so naturally the age was over 50. Other groups, mixed.

Dolly Welsh wrote:

When Judaism is reduced to an occasional - not weekly, just occasional - night of singing and philosophical chat, it finds itself competing with all the other things that are pleasant and fun.

They were praying. Not in a style I was comfortable with but praying nonetheless. Many prayers are sung out loud. So shuls sing a great deal, others not so much, and I'm talking about Orthodoxy.

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Over time, there is more variety and expertly programmed excitement in those things.

One can say the same about ritualized Orthodoxy.

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Can religion compete with TV? Of course it can't. The best talents of the age are crafting TV. I was just reading about "pitch correcting software". They can perfect singing way beyond the atonal home-made sounds of your mixed singing congregation.

My mixed congregation? Don't you sing in your shul? Women do in many shuls, including Orthodox shuls, they just do it on the other side of the mechitza. And it is atonal. Not sure of your point.

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Communal comfort-zoning isn't enough.

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Not over time. Not generation after generation.

You keep bringing up reform Judaism which isn't what the topic is about.

If Orthodoxy can only stay Orthodox if women do the men a favor and deny themselves, then you aren't saying much for Torah. If a man is unable to don tefillin if a woman also does, even if his wife/mother/daughter don't, or even if they do, it shows very little for Torah commitment.

You are slurring Orthodox Jewish men everywhere.

Dolly Welsh wrote:

People used to think bagels, snarky comedy, and the labor movement were Judaism. That was indeed their Judaism. But their children weren't into bagels, and didn't find themselves living their parent's outdated stories. They listened politely but those stories weren't their lives, they were history. They drifted away, snarking faintly into the distance, until they Seinfelded themselves right out of sight, and disappeared.

? Again, we are talking about women putting on Tefillin in order to connect with Hashem, not becoming Reform.

Dolly Welsh wrote:

That can happen to you. That can happen to yours.

It can happen to you. That can happen to yours. What you think leaving Judaism is only a symptom of the Reform? Where have you been living?

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Maybe good stuff has a price?

Of course it does.

We all know high-end clothes cost more, and have to cost more. That, we understand. That, we accept. Well, that's true across the board.

Yes, which has absolutely zip to do with women putting on Tefillin. If Torah were dear to men they'd put on Tefillin whether other women did or not. It wouodln't be cheap to them. If it is cheap to them the problem is them, not women who are putting on the Tefillin.

How can you speak so poorly about Jewish men?

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Jun 29 2015, 8:48 am

I didn't call anything cheap; my poorly chosen metaphor meant that what is good has a price and what is very good may have a high price. We want the sweets of an orderly life with husbands and children, the sweets of well regulated close but dignified relations with men, and that comes at a price. The price is defined gender roles, with everything that comes with that, some of it painful. Meaning, frustrating. No, you can't have it all.

I am late life BT and I am not talking in ignorance. I come out of that world. You sound FFB. You don't know what happens so I am giving you the bad news and you don't like hearing it. Well, it isn't nice news, but I thought I should tell you.

You say "it is difficult to imagine", and yes, it is, and no, you haven't imagined, and few have, so I am trying to inform you.

Men don't think or operate like you. Have you never heard them ranting about how hard it is to imagine why women are The Way They Are? I have. Men are The Way They Are, too. The genders can live together well with Torah which is miraculous because they are so different. The miracle would be reduced if they could understand each other. Their affectionate and respectful acceptance of people they can't understand is what is so precious.

In general I remark you shouldn't do what you can do; you should do what ONLY YOU can do. If other people can do something, and you can do it too, but, there's something only you can do, don't do the thing the others can do. That's a waste of your talents. It leaves undone the one thing only you can do.

We have specialized, unique abilities they don't have, so that takes priority in general. Individual cases vary. And no, you can't do it all. There are only so many hours in the day.

No, it's NOT fine, in general, to have two children instead of eight, and be a lawyer. That's been tried. It leads to extinction. I repeat individual cases vary.

Women / men roles are there. We have to work with the nature we have and have good and interesting lives working with what is there.

I didn't say it was always fun or without pain. I mentioned the Akeda. That wasn't fun. But Yitzak didn't die and we don't either.