Anyone have a family member who OTDed as an older adult

amother

Tan

Thu, Nov 26 2015, 11:26 pm

professor wrote:

come on, tzeddokim believed that someone's eye should be ripped out if he poked another's eye out. that is not asking questions, that's just being "smart aleck" even reading the pashut p'shat of the passuk one would not draw this crazy conclusion! this is out right making fun of the torah, what the tzeddokkim did.

There are no tziddokim around anymore so you can argue with them all you like. I'm just pointing out that then and now. Questioning is allowed up until a certain point, and after a certain point, once the conclusions of said questioning and research don't match up with the torah, that person is considered otd.

zaq

Thu, Nov 26 2015, 11:28 pm

professor wrote:

Pardes must be a very traumatizing place... then again, people like maddonna learned some kaballah and stayed normal (as normal as she's been till then)

are you for real? You're comparing Madonna's experience (does she even count, having never been on the derech in the first place?) dabbling her toes in pseudo-kabbalah, lehavdil, with the experience of four of the greatest minds of the Mishnaic age? That's rather like claiming that because you learned how to multiply fractions in fourth grade, calculus can't possibly frighten you. Oh, I forgot, you don't believe in science. Let me amend that, then: it's like saying that because you know how to make a soft-boiled egg, you're not afraid of tackling souffle. I would accuse you of dissing the sages if your statement weren't so laughably absurd.

amother

Sienna

Thu, Nov 26 2015, 11:48 pm

zaq wrote:

We will never know exactly what EbA saw that made him turn apostate, but it must have been rather traumatizing. Remember, four of the greatest sages of the age walked through the "pardes"; of the four, one died, one lost his mind, EbA lost his faith, and only Rabbi Akiva came back unscathed.

Sorry for jumping into this conversation, but I wanted to make a comment about the above. I once read (I wish I'd remember the source Sad

) that EbA didn't stop believing in Hashem. Instead, the problem was that he stopping doing mitzvos bc he felt that by staying "connected" to Hashem (whether through mediation or wtva) he was accomplishing wtva the mitzvos were supposed to accomplish. So basically he felt very close spiritually but was no longer as concerned with putting on tefillin or "interrupting his avoda" with mitzvos.

Sorry, I know not totally relevant here, but wanted to share this because I found it quite fascinating when I read it.

PinkFridge

Fri, Nov 27 2015, 8:22 am

professor wrote:

thank you for your support. I really needed this post after reading through some of the others...
I am totally going to ignore the posts that are deliberately mean to me. I am sorry, ladies, but I have my own family to deal with, so I will not waste my energy on mean people.

I haven't read through every post, but I'll say this. Some may have been mean-spirited, others were just trying to tell it to you like it is, and may well have been meant to be forceful. I'm going to suggest you do something that may be hard, but will possibly be rewarding: do read every post. Try to see them not as inciteful, but insightful. You're trying to put yourself in the head of the OTD relative. Try to see it from others' perspectives too and you may gain some valuable insights. Because it's possible that your relative is seeing it that way too.

PinkFridge

Fri, Nov 27 2015, 8:29 am

professor wrote:

Pardes must be a very traumatizing place... then again, people like maddonna learned some kaballah and stayed normal (as normal as she's been till then)
don't think that I never wanted to learn kaballah. it's been nagging in my brain for years. I can't wait to be 40 (are women also 40 when they are allowed tro learn this?)

Edited because I shouldn't have taken you seriously.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Fri, Nov 27 2015, 9:09 am; edited 1 time in total

professor

Fri, Nov 27 2015, 8:47 am

amother wrote:

no. if the question is asked with an open inquisitive mind, it will be respected whether the answer is easy or not. the only people who are "not allowed to question" are the ones asking sarcastically, with an "answer" already in their mind, like the silly tzidokim

professor

Fri, Nov 27 2015, 8:59 am

zaq wrote:

I will completely ignore the spiteful remarks. but I will clarify that Madonna was a quip I was being a bit sarcastic and comparing some of the laymen, like her, who, because they learned the parts of a cell, think they can have legitimate scientific arguments. all because "it was said" that this or that is true.

professor

Fri, Nov 27 2015, 9:03 am

amother wrote:

Sorry for jumping into this conversation, but I wanted to make a comment about the above. I once read (I wish I'd remember the source Sad

pm me the source if you ever find it, it does sound fascinating and I would like to read it too. and, yes this is very relevant here. I am trying to figure out why someone will go otd... this is a very interesting concept - feeling close enough to Hashem that one doesn't need to keep the mitzvos for a connection

professor

Fri, Nov 27 2015, 9:17 am

PinkFridge wrote:

I do. I read every single post. especially the mean ones, because I am trying to figure out where this cruelty comes from. are they angry at me cause I represent those mothers/sisters/brothers/father's who didn't accept them as who they are?
let me just tell you that although I sound a bit angry and sarcastic on imamother, I am nether angry nor sarcastic in front of my loved one or the family. I paste a smile on my face and say that I still love you, of course I do, just please explain why. because the truth is that love and family doesn't just stop because of ben Adam lamakom. it is technically none of my business what anyone does between Hashemi and theirself, but it's something that matters tremendously when it comes to acting like family. no? it's a way of life and I am trying to raise my own children in a very different way than that.

amother

Tan

Fri, Nov 27 2015, 10:08 am

professor wrote:

wrong. Absolutely wrong. And very narrow minded to assume that. Have you ever tried asking difficult questions sincerely? Have you spoken to anyone who did? Maybe you should read some otd memoirs like the one by shulem deen. He describes the proccess in great detail. And even if the questions are sometimes respected that doesn't mean that the answers are satisfactory. Sometimes the answers just aren't good enough.

professor

Fri, Nov 27 2015, 11:24 am

amother wrote:

I don't assume. I know that questions are welcome in torah learning. Have I ever tried asking difficult questions sincerely? OH yes!! did I always get answers? of course not! but the world is full of mysteries. our job is to try and solve them by learning more and trying to understand deeper concepts.
I will ignore the "narrow minded" comment. I know you did not mean to be insulting. and I will look up "shulem deen"

amother

Tan

Fri, Nov 27 2015, 11:56 am

professor wrote:

Well some people aren't like you, and aren't satisfied with not receiving answers to their questions.

Amarante

Fri, Nov 27 2015, 1:27 pm

professor wrote:

I can't answer why someone is OTD anymore than I can answe why someone has faith.

I do recommend your reading Shulum Deen's memoir which is All Who Go Do Not Return. There is an extensive thread on it

While some people attempt to explain his going OTD from New Square by pointing out specific possible causes in his background, I think you would find it insightful in terms of the inner thoughts of someone who reluctantly left the fold.

professor

Fri, Nov 27 2015, 2:31 pm

amother wrote:

Well some people aren't like you, and aren't satisfied with not receiving answers to their questions.

I am very unsatisfied with not receiving answers.
so
some people who,
JUST LIKE ME
are not satisfied wit not receiving answers.
did they actually FIND the answers they were looking for when they became otd?
because I would like to meet someone who understands EVERYTHING. and has all the answers. maybe they could answer some of mine.
science answered some of my questions but left many many more questions unanswered. I looked everywhere for those answers, but have yet to find them.
going otd will not answer my questions at all. unless there exists a human who is
just like me
and was dissatisfied with not getting answers
and went otd
and found
all
answers

Last edited by professor on Fri, Nov 27 2015, 2:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

PinkFridge

Fri, Nov 27 2015, 2:35 pm

amother wrote:

I don't remember every post here. But the one you're responding to, professor was talking about how the questions are received, not the answers. I think that she would be respectful and compassionate to a Shulem Deen, having finished his book. Because even if he couldn't be mekabel the answers, he asked sincerely.
What am I missing?

MagentaYenta

Fri, Nov 27 2015, 2:45 pm

I'm getting the impression that the prof has an expectation that her OTD relative explain their reasoning for leaving at a level that satisfies her. No one who has gone OTD has an obligation to explain their motives to anyone.

We can certainly seek understanding by reading the written works of those who have left and exhibiting some levels of empathy and attempting to view the issue from another's POV.

professor

Fri, Nov 27 2015, 3:05 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

nope.
you are getting the wrong impression.
my unanswered questions have nothing to do with my relative.
I have been asking questions since I learned to talk, and never stopped.
this loved one who went OTD just happened.
my unanswered questions have been building up since childhood.
some were answered by learning torah.
but learning torah evoked even MORE questions.
some were answered by science.
but learning science aroused even MORE questions.
neither the rabbinic nor scientists answered any of them.

and speaking of the written work of Shulem deer, I did not yet get to read the book, but from reading online reviews I gather that he had very good reason to go otd it is VERY traumatizing to lose custady of 5 children, lose his wife's respect, and be branded an apikores because he listened to radio.
I do not blame him, and pray that he find peace and direction in his life.
my family, baruch Hashem, is not constricted or fanatic, so we have no excuse to go otd

MagentaYenta

Fri, Nov 27 2015, 3:11 pm

professor wrote:

nope.
you are getting the wrong impression...

(Snipped for brevity)

Questioning is a good thing by your standards and a life long part of your person and process according to you. Perhaps it is the same way for those that leave.

professor

Fri, Nov 27 2015, 3:14 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

(Snipped for brevity)

Questioning is a good thing by your standards and a life long part of your person and process according to you. Perhaps it is the same way for those that leave.

what has one got to do with the other??????

amother

Tan

Fri, Nov 27 2015, 3:15 pm

Riiiiiight. I think you should read the book. He lost custody after he'd been divorced for about a year. He went on to live a frum life for about 10 years or so after he listened to radio. He went otd because he could no longer believe in the Torah. He couldn't find any remotely logical proof. I think that answer scares you professor.