What did our grandmothers do before double ovens?

workaholicmama

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 4:55 am

I'm now remodeling a kitchen in a newly bought house. I chanced upon this thread while my dh was finalizing with the contractor who was typing the contract then. I realized I indeed do not need a full milchig range and oven as I'm doing 2 Over the range microwave convections. (I do a lot of fleishig baking, as well as daily rewarming of bread for breakfast) this thread made me call back the contractor to change the space assigned for the milchig range for a cabinet where we will install just a cooktop. We are so happy to gain another cabinet😃
Now I shall start a spinoff abt cooktop models....

amother

Magenta

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 5:27 am

I grew up with the hi lo oven. When were remodeling, I ended up going from one oven and a separate countertop oven for milchags to three separate free standing ovens, two dishwashers, three sinks and extra cabinets to hold all my pots and pans. I also have three separate cooktops and an upright counter divide.

My Rabbi doesn't allow flip flopping between dairy and meat. I still don't "get" why I need three separate cooktops. I don't "get" why I need totally separate cooking stations. I never put food down on the countertops. When I questioned why I need to spend all this money knocking down walls and moving gas, electric and water lines, I was told that it doesn't look nice not to. I questioned what about people who don't have extra money laying around. I was given the "it doesn't look nice not to" opinion. I was also told to thank Hashem I can do this rather than keep the money in the bank. It seems there are different stringencies for those with money and those without.

Raisin

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 6:05 am

just a thought - many people I know do have two ovens and two sinks. But then, those people have lots of kids and host a lot. (and don't get invited out too much for meals) Sure, if you are a small family who rarely have large crowds for meals, one sink and one oven might be easy enough to handle. Like I said earlier, a non kosher cook who cooks a lot might also install several ovens in a kitchen.

Previous amother, why 3 separate cooktops? Do you cook a lot of pareve food?

PinkFridge

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 6:35 am

champion wrote:

I am far from being a grandmother. I dont own a double oven. thank hashem that you are so spoiled you cant imagine anybody in the past two generations making do without such an extra. huff.....

Rabbi Frand talks about a new refrigerator they got years ago and how they were offered a free ice hookup. He realized - not sure if before or after the fact - that this would be setting the bar higher for their kids. This would be the norm and when their kids would need a new fridge this wouldn't seem like an add on but the basic.

There is a lot of new construction in frum communities, and when a kitchen's being built, sure, why not create room for a few appliances, like 2 ovens plus 1 dishwasher? I'd have no moral problem with it Tongue Out

Unlike the bobbes of old, I do use an oven for milchig, and prefer that my baking (which I do a lot of) be unambiguously pareve. Which I do by essentially keeping my oven pareve, and baking safe milchig (AYLOR when an oven actually becomes milchig: generally it's for liquidy stuff like cheesecake or lasagna, and I only make skip a step lasagna and cover it) and timing the open fleishig for a 24 hour break, like late erev Shabbos.

amother

Magenta

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 6:46 am

Raisin wrote:

I do a lot of pareves, but I generally don't try to make the same thing for both dairy and meat meals so I really don't need three stations. I bake milchag for a.m. Shabbos. Pareve is for later in the day.

5mom

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 6:55 am

amother wrote:

Yes, this is about affluence, not halacha. Ask your rabbi if his mother's kitchen looked nice.

What is happening is that your children will grow up believing that three sinks are essential for a kosher kitchen. They will of course need money for this, and may refuse to eat in houses with only two or (horrors!) one sink. Is this a good long term result?

I am in favor of people having whatever kind of kitchen suits them and their halachic requirements. But when a rabbi expands halacha into places where it doesn't belong, he's setting in motion all kinds of social ramifications, and not necessarily good ones.

PinkFridge

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 6:59 am

5mom wrote:

It reminds me of the story of Rav Chaim Soloveichik. Someone asked him if it was mutar to use milk for the arba kosos. He gave the man some money, much more than needed for 2 nights of wine. His talmid asked and he explained, if he's asking about milk, he surely doesn't have fleishigs for the sedarim either.

If my rav felt this so strongly he should take care of his flock. Because I would be left with 2 choices: to live with integrity and go vegetarian or close to it, and ask for his ongoing chizuk in this mesiras nefesh. Or to ask him if there is tzedaka money available to allow me to upgrade my kitchen (or if I could ask for a tuition reduction). I would make very, very sure that he had absolute clarity about the ramifications of his psak.

gp2.0

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 7:06 am

PinkFridge wrote:

While I hear the point, I think in some situations it's shortsighted. For example, having an ice and water dispenser in the fridge causes our family to drink a LOT more water than we normally would, instead of grabbing cold juice or soda because it's convenient.

And yes, time marches on, and once-brilliant inventions become basics. That is normal. Perhaps his parents shouldn't have gotten a fridge - they should have kept an icebox instead, like their parents did. This way, he would have gotten an icebox too instead of a fridge, which is a good thing because...? Scratching Head

PinkFridge

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 7:15 am

gp2.0 wrote:

This story happened maybe 30 years ago. I guess it worked better then. Now we are used to new features in anything - from appliances to communication devices, and appliances that have computers - becoming de rigueur every few years.
Don't take it literally, but conceptually.

saw50st8

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 7:22 am

Raisin wrote:

When we redid our kitchen, we added in 2 ovens, 2 sinks, 2 dishwashers and 2 microwaves. None are necessary, but all luxuries that didn't cost too much more but gave us a lot of flexibility and function. I used to spend 45 minutes a day washing dishes. Now it's 5 unloading the dishwasher! My husband wanted 2 microwaves because it allows us to heat food without covering anything. We do a lot of hosting also, and our setup makes it really work for us.

It's not necessary though.

I never did understand the separate cooktops. We have a six burner and just don't cook milk or meat on burners right next to each other.

amother

Magenta

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 7:55 am

PinkFridge wrote:

If my rav felt this so strongly he should take care of his flock. Because I would be left with 2 choices: to live with integrity and go vegetarian or close to it, and ask for his ongoing chizuk in this mesiras nefesh. Or to ask him if there is tzedaka money available to allow me to upgrade my kitchen (or if I could ask for a tuition reduction). I would make very, very sure that he had absolute clarity about the ramifications of his psak.

This is what I meant by different stringencies for people with affluence. He is not holding everyone to the same standards. If you only have one oven you can flip flop and you don't need separate cooktops I have never used my milchag dishwasher, and yet I had to install one because the Rabbi said. I HATE my counter divide, but "the rebbe said" so.

amother

Magenta

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 8:24 am

5mom wrote:

The money part deeply troubles me. By the time we were done installing 3 kitchens in one it cost six figures. Once we were done moving walls we ended up spending even more money. This money would have been better off going to the kids eventually.The renovation raised their standard of living and drained the funds to provide for it.

PinkFridge

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 8:26 am

amother wrote:

I'm so sorry. This is totally out of my frame of reference.

Raisin

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 8:48 am

saw50st8 wrote:

I'm pretty sure if you use burners for both meat and milk the space in between is treif. If you drop that expensive steak it might not be kosher anymore.

We have a similar kitchen set up to yours. And it is not that big, regular size kitchen.

Raisin

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 8:54 am

amother wrote:

If you know you won't use a milk dishwasher, why install one? shock

I have no idea how you ended up spending 6 figures. I assume everything was top of the line? An extra sink, oven, dishwasher and microwave should not cost all that much, or take up a tremendous amount of space. Even a pareve oven and sink should not. (which are unnecessary imo)

happybeingamom

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 8:56 am

amother wrote:

There is no halacha that you have to have a milchig dishwasher or any. It is almost like the Rebbe had you build his dream kitchen in your home.

I have 3 dishwashers (one single and a 2 drawer one) so I have no issue with multiple dishwashers if that is what one wants.

For people who do a lot of baking and cooking (like to do it or a have a large family) these amenities make life easier.

Notsobusy

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 8:56 am

amother wrote:

I really hate to say anything negative about anyone's rabbi, but I have never before heard of different stringencies for richer people. Unless maybe when it comes to buying an esrog or giving tzedakah. Is your rav related to the contractor or maybe the owner of the appliance store?

I think I would have gone shopping for a new rav first, before putting in the new kitchen.

Maya

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 9:08 am

amother wrote:

I don't understand why you had to consult your rabbi about a kitchen remodel. I've never heard of anyone doing that, much less following a "psak" that was clearly guided by something other than halacha.

5mom

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 9:39 am

Maya wrote:

I think it's very important to consider halacha when you remodel a kitchen, and if you don't know much, consulting a rabbi seems like a good idea. But choose a rabbi who will apply halacha and not just spend your money. It's totally unacceptable to give orders without explaining why.

amother

Ivory

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 9:39 am

For the first dozen years or so I was married I had one sink and one oven. I managed. There was always a backlog of dishes to be washed and a line of things waiting for the oven.
When we moved I got myself a nice big kitchen with 3 sinks /dishwashers, two ovens and lots and lots of counter space. I love it! I'd probably have done the same even if I didn't keep kosher!

I do a lot of cooking and baking and "crazy" stuff like canning, pickling, baking my own breads etc... that take up tons of space. Often I'll have all 3 dishwashers and both ovens going, all at once. The other week I baked 30lbs of bread at once and made 10 lbs of saerkraut. All while cooking supper (fleishigs) and the kids were doing their own thing on the milchigs side. I found myself wishing for a larger kitchen :-p
Of course it's not a necessity! And yes, my kids know that because they remember the constant juggling of the old house. But it sure is nice. :-)

Also, I spent way, way less than 6 figures on my kitchen. Plain stainless steel sinks, simple but functional standalone ranges, decent, non fancy dishwashers. No "panels" covering everything. Pleasing to look at but most importantly, functional.