שלא עשני אשה - interesting answer

JoyInTheMorning

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 6:04 am

Oh, I know that, Saddlebrown amother. There are many apologetics that go back to the time of the Gemara (that long passage of all those who didn't sin, including David and Batsheva, comes to mind). That doesn't make it any more convincing.

losingweight

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 6:08 am

I think he did an amazing job explaining to Savage the reason behind the brocha. His command of the language was amazing for a man who learned English in a chassdisha cheder. He didn't even stutter once. The gear Savage so humbled was great!

amother

Saddlebrown

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 6:22 am

This review gives the historical context (written by someone else but that's a book not on the internet), which again, I don't find religiously meaningful but is historically satisfying and explains why we might not want to get into a gender war about this particular issue. In my opinion it goes into the category of practices that may not speak to our times (like kitniyot,or taking medication on Shabbat) but that we're stuck with for the time being.

http://www.yctorah.org/compone.....1776/

(I'm not a proponent of YCT but it's a fine review)

amother

Saddlebrown

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 6:24 am

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

I agree. However, I believe it speaks to the intention of Chazal, that even then they felt the need to explain it. So it's not a matter of a blinded patriarchy (as we see it today), but of something else. To me that IS meaningful.

DrMom

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 6:42 am

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

So, if being obligated with a larger set of mitzvot means that you are more in need of "correction' (tikun), I suppose this means that servants are more "corrected" than people who are not servants, and that non-Jews are more "corrected" than Jews? So really, of all the people in the world, Jewish men are at the bottom of the heap?

This sort of apologetics seemed ridiculous to me when I was six years old, and they still do.

I agree with you. This reasoning also strikes me as ludicrous.

If a bunch of Noahides got together and davened each morning, "Thank You for not making me a Jew," nobody would think that is unsettling? After all, they only have 7 mitzvot to worry about.

JoyInTheMorning

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 9:17 am

amother wrote:

Yes, I see what you're saying. The fact that 2K years ago, there was already a hava amina that this might be inconsistent is indeed remarkable. Then again, that's what made the Perushim so wonderful, the fact that they were so enlightened with regard to social issues, especially compared to the societies which surrounded them.

amother

Saddlebrown

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 9:48 am

DrMom wrote:

It's funny actually, because the reasoning never spoke to me, but when you put it like that I get it. Because if a Noahide would say that it would show a deep awareness and sensitivity to my experience. I don't think I'm better than him because I have more mitzvot, and sometimes those mitzvot make my life way harder. He shouldn't want to be a Jew. It's a little strange to state it in the negative, but that's where the historical context of the bracha comes into play, turning the Greek academy on it's head.

It's interesting because the modern, liberal mind can choose to interpret shelo asani isha in one of two ways: that men are saying that they are better than women, or that they are every day affirming the very modern and feminist belief women are disadvantaged in society, and that in many ways it's harder to be a woman than a man. So it's interesting that everyone immediately reads it the first way, as if its impossible that halacha is necessarily sexist at its core.

I also feel privileged to make the bracha of sheasani kirtzono, which to me is a daily affirmation of self-acceptance. Men miss out by having to start their days so negatively.

amother

Wine

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 9:51 am

amother wrote:

This response dates back to the Tosefta (contemporaneous with the Gemara) so while it may not be a gratifying answer, it's hardly modern apologetics.

My internet filters are blocking most of the links but where is this Tosefta? What does it say exactly?

The Tosfeta predates the Gemorah (it is from the time of the Misnah) and the Gemora doesn't mention the Brocha of Asini Krtzonoy (it was added later)so how can a tosefta answer this question?

greenfire

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 10:00 am

he didn't prove anything but that he is a chassidishe guy who speaks to a lot of people - including but not limited to radio talk show hosts - yes said talk show host was impressed - he bought him off with compliments - we call that a people person

as for the brocha itself - I say שעשני אשה Dancing

then chase it with a לחיים Cheers

[hate spelling mistakes]

Last edited by greenfire on Thu, Apr 14 2016, 10:19 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Bisque

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 10:09 am

amother wrote:

What does this mean?

shoshanim999

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 10:28 am

observer wrote:

Am I the only woman who has no issue with this bracha? I feel blessed and privileged to be a woman and play the special role that only a woman can. No need to have such a complex about the wording.

I'm sure most of us feel blessed that Hashem created us the way he did. That doesn't detract from the fact that all over Judaism woman are unquestionably second class compared to men. This is a fact. The bracha that men say every morning is just another example on what is a pretty long list.

imorethanamother

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 12:07 pm

shoshanim999 wrote:

I hear you, though I don't think most Jewish men feel that the women in their lives are second class.

The one and only shiur that makes sense to me about this topic is that - women are physically weaker, and thus mistreated all over the world. That doesn't mean we are less than, it means that we are raped and beaten and abused and mistreated and discriminated against more than men. And who wants that? Same reason why no one wants to be a slave. Hence the Bracha saying thanks.

But that's not God's intention. It's a whole complicated discussion about us and the moon and how the correct order of the world is to restore the lost light of the moon (us- women). Esther Wein has an excellent shiur on this on TorahAnytime. But the bottom line is - women and men should be treated equally, and that's what a utopia would look like. Our goal is to get there.