Why would any religious person vote for bernie sanders??

PinkFridge

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 7:57 am

OP, I'll tell you why.
Some people vote Democrat. It might be hard for others of us to understand but they do. And since I'm old enough to remember bipartisanship, I give them the right to do so. (Y'all are welcome Wink

)
Now if I were going to vote Democrat, if Republicans - yes, even Kasich - were totally not on my radar, I can see why Bernie over Hillary. There is a certain authenticity that Bernie projects. We cringe and wonder if he's hopelessly naïve or a self-hating Jew, but to most people, there is t minimum a certain begrudging respect for his being consistent, authentic, and l'shitaso. To say the least, Hillary doesn't project this. Remember the Madeleine Albright line about the special circle in hell for women how don't vote for Hillary? There are a lot of prominent liberal people who will be there, such as Susan Sarandon.

I do have serious concerns about a potential Sanders presidency but remind myself that yes, things can move fast - especially if Sanders outlives Supreme Court elders and gets to a second term and Moshiach's not here yet - but there are a lot of safeguards in this government. And, not so minor detail, Hashem runs the world and lev melachim v'sarim b'yad Hashem.

Mevater

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 10:14 am

DrMom wrote:

Hmmm... it seems that Bernie Sanders supports those who would like to see the Jewish Homeland wiped off the map... Is that his idea of "social justice?" No thanks.

Like a relative of mine says , Sanders is out for the little guy, except when the little guy is the little country surrounded by hostile neighbors looking to destroy it and all its inhabitants and all those in other countries who support it (Jews), leaving no remembrance of them. That little guy Sanders cares LITTLE or nothing about, or worse yet, Sanders cares A LOT to further weaken that little guy. We have a lot to daven for.

Ihatepotatoes

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 10:41 am

who remembers operation chaos ? that was what rush limbaugh dubbed the movement to vote for hillary last time to stretch out the nominating contest against obama. That would be the only reason I could see for voting for the old man, to try getting the democrats into a bit of a nomination fight

leah233

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 11:02 am

At first I thought that if the elections boil down to Trump and Sanders I either won't vote or I'll write in whoever I supported in the primaries. But after Sanders made that ridiculous 10,000 deaths in Gaza comment and said the Israeli military should have done things differently, despite not knowing what, I changed my mind and would vote for Trump over him. (Yuck)

I do not believe that after being elected Sanders will prove any more idealistic than most other politician.

His ideas about heavily taxing the rich to support the poor sound like Robin Hood type theft. I will probably never be in the one percent so I will suffer no impact from his proposals. But I still find the whole concept morally wrong. I oppose most entitlement programs but still find the idea of ganging up on one group (the one percenters)going far beyond the general entitlement program issue.

If Sanders or anyone else cares so much about social justice how about fighting the government required discrimination and bigotry against white males (affirmative action)

marina

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 11:36 am

ora_43 wrote:

This. So much this.

It's kind of annoying to see all the posts that are basically "well, I don't care about his foreign policy, only about... " Do you realize what a luxury it is to not have to care? 90% of the world has no choice but to care about the American elections. So to see American voters so openly not caring about how their choice affects the rest of the world... blargh.

I'm not saying Clinton is awesome re: foreign policy and Sanders would be terrible (Sanders "plan" is basically "let other people take care of it," but hey, that might work, if the other people in question care to play along). Just that it's frustrating when people don't even care.

I dk if you mean to say this, but there's nothing really ethical about voting for an American president based exclusively on how he or she will act towards another country. It sort of smacks of treason even. Should Russian Americans vote for the guy who will be best for Russia? Iraqis on who will be best for Iraq? Or should we all consider America first and our other homelands second?

I'm not a Bernie fan and I don't agree with a lot of his foreign policy. Israel is a part of that, but just a part. If Bernie was perfect in every way for the US but not that great for Israel, wouldn't it be odd for me to choose someone else for only that reason?

leah233

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 11:37 am

marina wrote:

Those poor victims of bigotry and discrimination- white men!

Bigotry and discrimination are morally wrong. Period.If you can't see anything wrong with discrimination towards one group don't complain when others don't see anything wrong with discrimination towards another

leah233

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 11:48 am

marina wrote:

I don't see affirmative action as bigotry. Why do you?

Because it requires one group to be discriminated against based on race and gender.

Perhaps discrimination is a better description then bigotry but it leads to allowing the bigoted attitudes like that of the "wise Latina lady" currently on the supreme court.

marina

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 11:58 am

leah233 wrote:

Germany offers some benefits to Jews living in Germany that it does not offer to others. Do you see this as discrimination?

leah233

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 12:47 pm

marina wrote:

Germany offers some benefits to Jews living in Germany that it does not offer to others. Do you see this as discrimination?

Barring extenuating circumstances it would be wrong for any country to offer special benefits to Jews. If such an idea was proposed in the US I would vote against it

Other then(eg) easy citizenship for those whose ancestors left because of the holocaust, a Jew who chooses to live in Germany today does not deserve special benefits.

dimyona

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 12:59 pm

OP, in answer to your question:

1. I don't think religion should define politics. Not mine, not yours, and not the candidates'.

2. I don't doubt Bernie's support for Israel. He has family there, he spent a year of his life there, and he's continuously expressed his backing for Israel and denounced Hamas and other terror groups. He disagrees with Netanyahu, and is concerned about the very real and human suffering of the Palestinians. Yes, it's Hamas's fault, etc, etc, but I think it is immoral to be dismissive about the great loss of human life involved on either side like I see so often on imamother and other frum sites.

I don't agree with all of Bernie's policies, and I don't think he'll win the election, but I support him because it's refreshing to see authenticity and consistency in politics, and I want him to give Hillary a hard time and push her to make more moral choices. He's been on the right side of history with social liberty issues and civil rights, as well as America's foreign policy regarding invasion of Iraq and regime change in Libya. I don't go for the whole Robin Hood spiel, but I do think we have a huge problem with corporations buying elections and having so much power over legislation.

The good thing about our system is that we have checks and balances. Even if a candidate's views are seen as too radical, compromise will be the only way to put things into action. Congress is now Republican, so an extreme right wing candidate is a lot scarier to me than the other end, because they may actually be able to implement some of their radical ideas.

Edited to fix typo

DrMom

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 1:21 pm

marina wrote:

How is voting based on foreign policy any less ethical than voting based on abortion stances or environmental stances or policies regarding free college tuition or free healthcare or any other single issue?

Singling out Americans who care about Israel for "treason" is disgusting.

Last edited by DrMom on Tue, Apr 19 2016, 1:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

marina

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 1:26 pm

leah233 wrote:

Tell me why you made that exception.

What if a particular university was known for excluding Jews for decades and decades? Would it be unethical discrimination for that university to accord particular positive attention towards Jewish applicants as a way to remedy their past bigotry?

Last edited by marina on Tue, Apr 19 2016, 1:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

marina

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 1:28 pm

DrMom wrote:

How is voting based on foreign policy any less ethical than voting based on abortion stances or environmental stances or any other single issue?

I think the general idea is that your loyalty is to your country first. So if your political decisions are based on what is best for a different country, that would be disloyal in a way that other one-issue voting is not.

DrMom

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 1:30 pm

marina wrote:

Tell me why you made that exception. What if a particular university was known for excluding Jews for decades and decades? Would it be unethical discrimination for that university to accord particular positive attention towards Jewish applicants as a way to remedy their past bigotry?

That wouldn't make sense, since the students whom they passed over for admission presumably went elsewhere. How does lowering admission standards for future applicants compensate those whom they unfairly denied admission?

And who wants to be admitted suspecting that perhaps they don't really deserve it because they may have lowered admission criteria for you?

DrMom

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 1:31 pm

marina wrote:

Perhaps many Americans feel that supporting Israel in the face of radical Islamic terror in the Middle East will ultimately be beneficial to US security?

marina

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 1:35 pm

DrMom wrote:

In this example, I am not talking about lowering admission criteria. Perhaps in a later piece of the discussion.

Right now the question is whether the Jewish background should even be noticed in a positive way. So let's say the university adds points to already numerically-qualified applicants for having some unique talents or extracurricular experiences or for being an alumni's child or for having some interesting life experiences or whatever. Should being Jewish also get points, if the candidate is already qualified based on the testing scores? Assuming the school previously discriminated against Jews?

DrMom

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 1:39 pm

marina wrote:

I don't think so. If you think so, can you explain why?

marina

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 1:41 pm

DrMom wrote:

Perhaps many Americans feel that supporting Israel in the face of radical Islamic terror in the Middle East will ultimately be beneficial to US security?

Yes, this would be part of a foreign policy analysis. And if this is the very main foreign policy concern, then I guess that a one-issue voter would go for whomever supports Israel best in the face of Islamic terror.

I don't really think, however, that supporting Israel is the only foreign policy piece a voter has to consider. For example, I cannot imagine a complete analysis of a candidate's foreign policy without considering the US response towards ISIS, a position that may not be related to US support of Israel.