Paying the Rebbi | Imamother

cnc

Sun, Nov 06 2016, 12:20 pm

seeker wrote:

I totally get why this sounds bizarre but you really need to spend more time in schools. Excessive bathroom breaks are a really tricky issue. You can't stop kids from going to the bathroom because what if it really is an emergency? But you need to really motivate them to go during breaks and not leave the classroom unless they really need to. I agree that money is a little tacky but I don't think it's the end of the world. It would make more sense to give the kids a certain number of free passes before invoking the fee.

OP says the kids are 12. By this age they should have at least some of their own money. So the parents' financial status should have nothing to do with this. Nobody is going to have accidents because they're underprivileged. At 12, if you're that desperate, you can make the judgment call to spend the 50 cents.

I had a teacher who fined a quarter if you didn't do your homework. The money was donated to the school library. Nobody was scarred by this policy. Not one parent objected BECAUSE THIS WAS 20 YEARS AGO when people didn't get so kerfuffled over things like this. I was a regular homework delinquent but I also had a few babysitting jobs, chanukah gelt, etc. I made a calculated decision that I would prefer to "donate" about $10 and not bother with homework. This decision frustrated most adults in my life and was considered an abuse of the system but as an early adolescent it was very empowering. Also, I was an anomaly, most kids just were more compelled to actually do the homework.

My kids do have their own money but I would be livid if they would have to spend it on bathroom privileges. On late fines or as consequences for not doing your homework or breaking other rules is a different situation.

SRS

Sun, Nov 06 2016, 12:25 pm

I hate to say, but this is such a red flag that I have a hard time squaring it up with your feeling this is an amazing cheder.

Furthermore, Rebbes should not have their own systems. The school should have a bathroom and a late policy that is school wide. A hall pass for the bathroom that allows a single student to take it and make a solo trip to the bathroom worked in my time and will work now.

Beyond that, such a policy shows absolutely no rachmanos on the child that simply does not have money (as many kids do not).

tryinghard

Sun, Nov 06 2016, 12:41 pm

SRS wrote:

Every class is different, and certainly grades (if we are speaking about elementary. I agree about a pass system, but it can still be abused. I don't like this particular system, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be one. Some classes have more kids who "abuse the system" than others, and abuse of a system can be contagious, so teachers really need the freedom to customize for their particular class. I like the idea of one free pass, athough, as others have said, children should really go during breaks. If they KNOW they can just go during class, why would they waste their precious break time? I like the idea of internal currency though - raffle tickets or something - so that a child who only occasionally needs to leave class gets rewarded, as opposed to penalizing those who do need to go.

5*Mom

Sun, Nov 06 2016, 12:51 pm

tryinghard wrote:

Some classes have more kids who "abuse the system" than others, and abuse of a system can be contagious, so teachers really need the freedom to customize for their particular class. I like the idea of one free pass, athough, as others have said, children should really go during breaks. If they KNOW they can just go during class, why would they waste their precious break time?

These kids are in school for hours and hours and hours. It. Is. Ok. if they spend 15 minutes here and there of class time pretending to go to the bathroom because it's Just. Too. Intense. Or boring. Or they need to walk around. Or they just don't feel like it all the time.

chaiz

Sun, Nov 06 2016, 1:01 pm

5*Mom wrote:

I hear your point and it's an interesting perspective on the situation you describe, but this hardly applies in the case of a fee for a natural and necessary bodily function. You can't always schedule your need for the bathroom. This kind of attempt to control people by regulating their most basic bodily function would never fly in the adult world and for good reason.

This completely!! I am totally not getting what the point of the rule is.

cnc

Sun, Nov 06 2016, 1:06 pm

5*Mom wrote:

This.
Kids are in school from 8:45 to 4 (sometimes 5 PM). I'm fine with them using their measly 15 minute break to actually chill instead of using the restroom.
I taught for 10 years and my rule was that you can use the bathroom one at a time.... the only time that it irked me was when a student would ask to use the rest room as soon as I walked in after a 40 minute lunch period. (But I would still allow them to go.)

No one took advantage of me. If they were leaving to stretch their legs that's perfectly fine and they didn't stay out to long out of consideration for their classmates since they knew that no one can leave until they're back .

amother

Mistyrose

Sun, Nov 06 2016, 1:12 pm

cnc wrote:

I'm a teacher of 12 year old girls and I feel exactly the same way. I let my students go whenever they need to. I try to limit it to one at a time, but in general no one takes advantage. How can I tell a 12 year old girl that she cant use the bathroom?!! It boggles my mind.

Sometimes if were just starting a new topic I'll tell a girl I'd rather she wait if she can but its her decision.

IMHO teachers who make these rules are not very good teachers who have to find ways to keep the kids in class. BH generally speaking my students dont want to leave! Smile

MagentaYenta

Sun, Nov 06 2016, 1:43 pm

Yup you are right your cheder is amazing. From Mirriam Webster, amazing:causing great surprise or wonder : causing amazement

The fact is it's not amazing in a good way. I'd be down there talking to whomever runs that amazing place. By the way I think his taxing of bathroom benefits is absurd.

Absurd:wildly unreasonable, illogical, or inappropriate.
synonyms: preposterous, ridiculous, ludicrous, farcical, laughable, risible, idiotic, stupid, foolish, silly, inane, imbecilic, insane, harebrained, cockamamie;

ra_mom

Sun, Nov 06 2016, 3:27 pm

amother wrote:

I agree with this and it holds true to my dd's Hebrew teacher this year who instituted this nutty rule of only one girl allowed to use the bathroom during Hebrew periods each day. Sad

amother

Violet

Sun, Nov 06 2016, 3:32 pm

ra_mom wrote:

I agree with this and it holds true to my dd's Hebrew teacher this year who instituted this nutty rule of only one girl allowed to use the bathroom during Hebrew periods each day. Sad

I have something similar, my dd is only allowed to use the bathroom three times in a month! She is nine. But the teacher is already teaching there a few years so I feel like nothing will change if I call

notshanarishona

Sun, Nov 06 2016, 4:39 pm

If it's an amazing cheder , I would call them and find out if this is true. The only way I can see an "amazing" rebbe doing this, is if he has 2 or 3 designated bathroom times a day and it's 50 cents if you go out beyond that. I have heard similar ideas of a designated 10 minute slot every couple of hours where everyone can go. This avoids the students going out to play games and taking advantage.
I have never heard of penalizing the first time you go.

It is a problem that there are students who ask to go to the bathroom every half hour because they don't like learning and this was probably a response to that.

octopus

Sun, Nov 06 2016, 5:10 pm

I love seekers posts on this thread. I think the practical thing to do in this situation is to calmly but firmly call up school and/or rebbi, and tell them that you understand that this is perhaps an issue in this particular class, but if you can please substitute the payment for tickets (like seeker said) and the boys have a certain allotment of tickets each week. Do I agree with limiting the bathroom like this? no. But if this is the system the teacher has in place, your best bet is asking for a small modification of the system versus a complete overhaul.

seeker

Sun, Nov 06 2016, 7:46 pm

cnc wrote:

So funny because I would have said the opposite, at least WRT late fines - to me, getting to school on time is not so firmly in the kid's control at this age. Many are still dependent on their parents for transportation, others take public transportation which can be fickle and can take a lot of time for a 12-year-old to figure out how to navigate those variables, and of course if they're taking official school transportation then what are you going to do?

But most kids can control how often they need to leave class (though, as I think I mentioned, I hope the rebbie is reasonable about this.)

It's interesting to hear some others share about their kids' intense schedules. If they really have no time for bathroom breaks then that is a much bigger problem. I have a lot of sympathy for kids this age because their schedules really do tend to be intense, but still in general I have seen a lot of fooling around and then asking to be excused at inopportune times. I think that the class periods that have the most "emergencies" are just the ones that came after the one with the hardline bathroom policy. Not necessarily related to how interesting the class was, more that the kids know which teachers mean business.

I'm guessing that this rebbi would not have implemented this policy if it weren't necessary. This is the kind of invention that was born of necessity. There could have been other solutions but if this one is working for him then it ain't broke and it don't need fixin. I doubt OP's son is spending any significant chunk of his allowance on bathroom breaks; more likely he is taking more breaks during a class run by someone who isn't this brazen.

seeker

Sun, Nov 06 2016, 8:58 pm

5mom wrote:

I understand that these are small sums and the boys won't have trouble paying. What's disturbing is the idea that everything is for sale.

This is an interesting perspective and giving me more food for thought than the rest of the thread put together!

Hmmm.... I still think that putting a (small) cost on something is a valid deterrent.

I think a lot of people here (not you, I'm just replying in general to the thread) are missing the point - people keep saying "How can you not let kids use the bathroom?!" And the point is that that's exactly what this rebbie is NOT doing. BECAUSE you can't not let kids use the bathroom, you need to find some other way to make sure that they're only going when needed.

Of course having the parent give the rebbi $20 and saying just let my kid go whenever, would defeat the purpose. The point is to have the kids think about their actions having a cost. Very very few 12-year-olds would relate to the idea that taking a bathroom break during class instead of during recess comes at a cost to their learning. Which it undeniably does.

I doubt most kids would be as bratty as I was in the homework scenario. Also, bathroom is a much more frequent temptation so you can't just decide to have a strong habit and pay it off like I did with the homework. If you decide to just take the break and swallow the fee because you really need a break, I think that's OK. The point is that because of the fee, you won't be taking breaks all the time just because you can. You'll think harder about whether you really NEED to stretch your legs RIGHT NOW or if you can wait it out.

5*Mom

Sun, Nov 06 2016, 10:52 pm

seeker wrote:

The point is to have the kids think about their actions having a cost. Very very few 12-year-olds would relate to the idea that taking a bathroom break during class instead of during recess comes at a cost to their learning. Which it undeniably does.

This solution is only cosmetic. A student may still be sitting in his seat but he's busy in his head with all kinds of cheshbonos about whether and when he should leave and how much he's willing to spend. It's a sign of very small-minded thinking on the part of the rebbe if he thinks this policy will have a positive impact on his students' education.

seeker wrote:

I think a lot of people here (not you, I'm just replying in general to the thread) are missing the point - people keep saying "How can you not let kids use the bathroom?!" And the point is that that's exactly what this rebbie is NOT doing. BECAUSE you can't not let kids use the bathroom, you need to find some other way to make sure that they're only going when needed.

I disagree that this is what a teacher needs to do. I think a teacher needs to recognize that he can't and shouldn't try to control his students to this degree and just get back to teaching, and teaching well. Most students will at some point go out to the bathroom just because. Eh. Some students will spend more time out of class than in it. In those cases the bathroom policy is hardly the issue and the teacher should be working harder to figure out how to reach those students without trying to control their bodily functions. I honestly think the field of education today has completely lost the plot.

5mom wrote:

What's disturbing is the idea that everything is for sale.

I also agree that this is most disturbing from a chinuch perspective. Everything can be had for a fee - and the rebbe is running a side business! Honestly, who can learn from a rebbe who personally takes money for allowing his students to use the bathroom?

seeker wrote:

I doubt most kids would be as bratty as I was in the homework scenario.

I don't think you were bratty at all. I applaud kids like this (and I have a couple, myself Wink

5mom

Sun, Nov 06 2016, 11:26 pm

Seeker, kol hakavod for buying your way out of homework. A teacher who offers the possibility has to be ready for someone to take it.

The rebbi in this case wants to have the kids in their seats rather than popping up and down all the time. This is a legitimate goal, but it needs to be addressed within the system. The consequences for lateness and excessive time out of class should be academic, not financial.

You can't lower a kid's grade because he went to the bathroom, but you can ask him a question the next day on the material that was covered while he was out of the room. (If he hasn't missed anything, there's your problem.)