How bad is it to eat chalav stam if you hold CY?

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amother

Denim

Thu, Jun 08 2017, 1:54 am

MrsDash wrote:

Anyone have some OU-dairy popcorn they can pass around for those of us who are just here for the show?

And I can bring some more Ice cream

But I will be inclusive and bring some cy and some cs (no ca, of course). I'm just that kinda gal.

chanchy123

Thu, Jun 08 2017, 4:07 am

Seas wrote:

Trust isn't afforded automatically - it has to be earned. And even the trust which is afforded by default to all frum Yidden, is diminished when you know for sure those Yidden rely on questionable kullos for no real reason.

I think that is a terrible thing to say, and to my understanding it goes contrary to the principles of the Torah.

It is the exact opposite of the way I raise my kids and I view Judaism.

Unless there is a particular reason that makes a person's neemanot questionable why doubt him? החושד בכשרים לוקה בגופו, המוציא עליו הראייה these are two sayings by chazal that I can come up off the top of my head that reflect this.

A Jew is a kosher Jew by default.

chanchy123

Thu, Jun 08 2017, 4:34 am

poelmamosh wrote:

Re: chassidim and yoshon,
The reason we are stricter with cholov stam versus chadash has more to do with kabbalah than strict halachic logic. Dairy products are higher on the food chain than grain (as per the hierarchy of domem, tzomeach, chai, medaber). Tanya speaks about the spiritual issues that may arise from lax Kashrus standards specifically with regard to animal-derived products.
Eta, I'm getting a sense of deja vu here...there are certainly old threads on this exact topic.

I mean absolutely no disrespect to you, but many chassidish posters here assume that being chassidish their form of practicing Judaism is more strict and halachicly valid than any other and they assume for some reason that people who are not chassidish accept this as universal truth.

That fact is that many non-Cassidish people are too polite (or have been burned by moderation on this site) to make remarks about chassidish practices that run counter to the way they perceive halacha and certainly practices that are considered more lenient than their own.

I think people are trying to say that while you may a certain Kashrut standard to be lax or invalid other people consider other aspects of your halachic observances lax or invalid. I think that it is vital to understand that almost everyone on this site is certain their derech is the best way to follow halacha and do what Hashem wants from us - almost everyone else feels the same way too about their path too. Of course I also think there is lot we all can learn from other people's practices.

It is wrong to wave the chassidish card and say - well because Chassidish rabbi so and so paskened a certain way it is universally OK. That may be true for your way of thought but many other Torah Jews have the opposite understanding.

My form of Judaism does not pasken according to kabala, a psak that follows kabalic considerations that stands in contradiction to halachic rules would not considered valid.

Seas

Thu, Jun 08 2017, 10:19 am

amother wrote:

You are making a "no true Scotsman's" argument. It goes like this:
"I know someone who accept's R' Moshe's heter and he's a big tzaddik"
Seas: "Well then he's not REALLY a big tzaddik."

But I didn't say that at all.

Quote:

You are hopelessly misinformed. We were told by our very frum, yeshivish rav that we should be paying full tuition before we expend extra dollars on CY milk. IOW, our very limited funds should not be used for CY products on the back of other, more important, causes. I would not write this as amother were it not for this bit of personal info.

I didn't make a statement about everyone who accepts said heter, only a generalisation about the communities that do. Obviously there are exceptions - as with any generalisation. But it doesn't change the fact that in general those who use unsupervised milk are also the kind of people who use many other kulos.

This, BTW, is even imlicit in R' Moshe's own ruling that a baal nefesh should refrain from consuming unsupervised milk.

Seas

Thu, Jun 08 2017, 10:20 am

amother wrote:

Interesting opinion! Does this mean youre not a fan of Yeshiva University musmachim, many of whom are very similar in observance to Lakewood learners, except for drinking Chalav Stam.

Do you by any chance give your mark of approval only to Chassidm and very Yeshivish people who only consume Chalav Yisroel?

Do you ask because you're genuinely curios about my opinion, or is it in order to be up in arms later for 'bashing other Jews'?

Seas

Thu, Jun 08 2017, 10:22 am

cnc wrote:

Sorry but you're totally wrong (although I'm
obviously not going to change your mindset.) I had a friend whose father was a respected Rav and they ate CS.
You seem quite misinformed and a "my way or the highway" personality.

And FTR, I repeat, I don't hold of CS under any circumstances.

Seeing as Rav Moshe said a baal nefesh should be machmir, I don't see what was respected about that rav (unless he himself refrained and only his children ate it).

Seas

Thu, Jun 08 2017, 10:27 am

goodmorning wrote:

You're welcome to be stringent and lenient in whichever ways that you'd like, but creating strawman arguments that those who eat cholov stam are by definition more lenient in kashrus across all areas than you are is just ridiculous.

I haven't yet studied the heter of chodosh well enough to give a point by point answer (or indeed accede). However there is a very major difference in the fact alone that R' Moshe himself refrained from consuming unsupervised milk and he wrote a baal nefesh should be machmir.

Seas

Thu, Jun 08 2017, 10:29 am

amother wrote:

Interesting that you should be able to determine what segment of society I am from based on the milk I drink. I bet you wouldn't have guessed that my husband is in kollel full time. I'm not sure where you got the impression that we "consume it willy nilly". My husband asked his own shaila before we were married and I asked when I married him. I don't criticize your Rabbanim, please don't criticize mine.

I'm amother because this is something I have discussed with several people IRL and as goodmorning so aptly put it, yoshon seems more halachicly compelling than chalav yisrael.

Again, I made a general statement. Obviously there are exceptions.

BTW if your husband is full time in kollel that should qualify him as a baal nefesh who should be machmir as per the psak of R' Moshe.

Seas

Thu, Jun 08 2017, 10:31 am

goodmorning wrote:

OOC, what do you mean by "trust"? Assuming that they have the same standards and/or the same level of halachic knowledge as you? Or believing them about the status of their food and standards, e.g. if they tell you that they only used a certain hechsher?

I mean would I partake from just anyone's kitchen? Most certainly not. If there are red flags regarding the care in kashrus (CA being one of them), I wouldn't eat from their kitchen.

cnc

Thu, Jun 08 2017, 10:32 am

Seas wrote:

Seeing as Rav Moshe said a baal nefesh should be machmir, I don't see what was respected about that rav (unless he himself refrained and only his children ate it).

Except that Seas opinion is not what determines whether or not someone is considered a respected person .

And like I said on another thread, I find it fascinating that a Chassidish woman like yourself quotes R' Moshe as the " be all and end all".

Last edited by cnc on Thu, Jun 08 2017, 10:36 am; edited 1 time in total

Seas

Thu, Jun 08 2017, 10:33 am

amother wrote:

True, but I do remember other posts awhile back where you disrespected R Moshe. I do not remember where, but I do remember being appalled at the lack of kavod for Daas Torah from such a supporter of Torah as yourself. I'm sorry to be amother, but I did give a lot of personal info in my post.

We are a kollel family for 17 years, my husband learns 12+ hours a day, my sons learn a great many hours a day, and we are the ones who were told to spend our funds NOT on CY but on paying more tuition, as I mentioned above.

I hope that one day, perhaps with old age, you will come to realize that other drachim are valid besides your chassidish derech. I mean, goodness, we can have a whole conversation about all the things chassidim do kneged halacha (davening bzman?) but that would be crazy. And disrespectful to you. Eilu v'eilu.

Having said all that, I get your point. You want to improve klal yisrael's milk consumption from bidieved to lichatchila. I suggest your learn hilchos mussar, so that you don't actually harm more than help in this quest. Here's an example of how you might phrase your point:

"The heter of R' Moshe was for a specific time when it was exceedingly difficult to get CY milk, and may not even apply today according to many gedolim. Therefore I think this is an issue that would behoove us all to strive to improve in." Note- no wholesale, wanton disrespect of people ultimately following halacha (if not lechatchila). I'm hoping, with age perhaps, you will see your method of giving mussar is completely not according to the Torah.

1. I have the greatest respect for R' Moshe.

2. If your husband learns 12+ hours a day he should be machmir.

3. I'm not out to give anyone mussar etc. The questions were asked and I responded.

Seas

Thu, Jun 08 2017, 10:40 am

cnc wrote:

Neither does yours. The onus on providing proof the rav was respected is on the one making the claim.

amother

Olive

Thu, Jun 08 2017, 10:44 am

cnc wrote:

I find it fascinating that a Chassidish woman like yourself quotes R' Moshe as the " be all and end all".

In this case, R' Moshe was the only one who gave any heter at all and that's who everyone bases it on. So she's really not using him as the 'be all end all'

cnc

Thu, Jun 08 2017, 10:45 am

Seas wrote:

Neither does yours. The onus on providing proof the rav was respected is on the one making the claim.

Lol.
At this point , you're just entertaining.

amother

Wine

Thu, Jun 08 2017, 10:50 am

amother wrote:

In this case, R' Moshe was the only one who gave any heter at all and that's who everyone bases it on. So she's really not using him as the 'be all end all'

That's not actually true. Rav Belsky did as well.

amother

Olive

Thu, Jun 08 2017, 10:51 am

amother wrote:

That's not actually true. Rav Belsky did as well.

Was he not basing it off R' Moshe's heter?

Either way, he was definitely the precedent to any future considerations.

(But, doesn't make much of a difference. Was just pointing out that she is NOT going according to Rav Moshe.)

dancingqueen

Thu, Jun 08 2017, 10:54 am

Rav Moshe Feinstein (Teshuvot Igrot Moshe Y.D. 1:47) writes that, “Most observant Jews and also many Rabbanim are lenient regarding this matter (consuming CS) and God forbid that one declare that they are acting improperly.”

from:
http://www.koltorah.org/ravj/1.....1.htm

So Seas, I think according to R Moshe, you owe a few people on this thread an apology.

amother

Denim

Thu, Jun 08 2017, 11:14 am

Here is a special Ice cream

just for you, Dancing Queen

amother

Denim

Thu, Jun 08 2017, 11:17 am

dancingqueen wrote:

So Seas, I think according to R Moshe, you owe a few people on this thread an apology.

(but she won't, because she doesn't hold by him. Yes I'm anonymous coz I'm a coward)

dancingqueen

Thu, Jun 08 2017, 11:49 am

amother wrote:

Here is a special Ice cream

just for you, Dancing Queen

Thanks, Haagen Daz cookies and cream I hope Wink

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