How bad is it to eat chalav stam if you hold CY?

amother

Vermilion

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 5:32 pm

simba wrote:

You are correct. Pure Cow milk is not Treif. It is chalav akum unless supervised by a Jew which would make it cholov Yisroel.

Chalav Stam was a heter given by R' Moshe Feinstein that ok's pure cow milk without being watched by a Jew. The debate lies within this psak.

Ok - all on the same page then. My main concern here is the use of the word treif.

chalav stam / Chalav akum has the potential of being treif, that doesn't mean that it is - it's not inherently non-kosher. However it may be not kosher to eat - ie non-permissible to eat, because of the lack of supervision, and therefore uncertainty to its status.

amother

Crimson

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 6:13 pm

yksraya wrote:

As par the shitta we keep, chalav stam is like eating something not kosher. Of course it's not the same as when eating real treif. But it goes into similar catagory as when a non jew cooks the food without the jew lighting the flame (non pas/bishul yisroel).

Of course we don't think someone with other shitta is doing something wrong. But someone with same/similar shita should decide to eat cholov stam, especially nowadays with so many CY choices, it would be hard not to judge. (Although I don't judge, just saying I can see why some would).

Growing up, my family ate chalav stam. At this point, I would accept chalav yisrael on, but honestly it is a lot more expensive and when on a tight budget, it really adds up - I would like to only have chalav yisrael, but it would cause our dairy budget to at least double and can't afford to do that (unless we get an even greater scholarship for tuition!). We can eat less, but I feel it's important for kids to have enough milk and dairy for their growing bones and health. I don't hold that chalav stam is not kosher, but chalav yisrael is a chumra that would be nice if affordable.

amother

Crimson

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 6:46 pm

amother wrote:

My Rav told me that people have sadly fardreit Rav Moshe Feinstien's psak. He was never Mattir the type of CA of today.

Can you please explain what you mean by "the type of CA of today"?

amother

Powderblue

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 6:58 pm

amother wrote:

Can you please explain what you mean by "the type of CA of today"?

The heter is based on the way milk was made 60 years ago; Milk straight out of a cow without ANYTHING added. The normal procedure 60 years ago was to do so.

amother

Crimson

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 7:03 pm

amother wrote:

The heter is based on the way milk was made 60 years ago; Milk straight out of a cow without ANYTHING added. The normal procedure 60 years ago was to do so.

But on stuff that I buy that is chalav stam, there is still a hechsher on it - like OU-D, Kaf-K-D (I wouldn't buy it if no hechsher), so isn't that hechsher for whatever gets done to the milk - I mean even though the milk itself isn't being supervised by a Jew and relying on government controls that it is all cow's milk, isn't all other parts of it under the hechsher?

amother

White

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 7:06 pm

I keep CY. I have no doubt that what is called "cholov stam" is no less and no different cow milk from the CY cow milk that I buy. But there is a spiritual component/ benefit to keeping CY and for this reason I have never thought to waiver on my commitment. In other words, it's not about not trusting the FDA. It's about trusting my rebbe that my neshama benefits from keeping CY.

amother

Powderblue

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 7:12 pm

amother wrote:

That's the question I asked my Rav. He told me that for various reasons he does not trust the D hechsher. According to him, the D is just like any other CS.
But I am only speaking for myself.
Please clarify with your own Rav.

amother

Wine

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 7:12 pm

amother wrote:

That's what I would think. And milk has been pasteurized since 1917 so that can't be the issue.

imasinger

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 7:13 pm

amother wrote:

The heter is based on the way milk was made 60 years ago; Milk straight out of a cow without ANYTHING added. The normal procedure 60 years ago was to do so.

And what is different today?

I started looking, and a first glance seems to show that in the US, grade A milk is checked for bacteria, pasteurized by heating, and has the milkfat removed then added back in (1%, 2%, etc).

Was milk not pasteurized 60 years ago? Is there an issue with removing then returning the fat? What else am I missing?

amother

Wine

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 7:14 pm

amother wrote:

What's CD?

amother

Wine

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 7:23 pm

imasinger wrote:

I think she said CS - Chalav Stam.

So her rav says that the OU-D designation doesn't mean the milk processing was Jewishly supervised.

Thanks, not sure why I thought it said CD

amother

Mauve

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 7:25 pm

Ask a Rabbi. One thing is sure: never say somehing is treif just because you dont eat. I don't drink or eat cholov stam but to call treif is not right. Like the chicken from certain chasidus that does not check tsomet hagidim you do not call treif cholila. Its hard to accept a husbands halacha fully. My husband decided potatoes are shehakol!

amother

Powderblue

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 7:41 pm

imasinger wrote:

So her rav says that the OU-D designation doesn't mean the milk processing was Jewishly supervised.

My Rav said that the heter on which -D is based is fardreit from what Rav Moshe Feinstein really paskend.

mommy3b2c

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 7:58 pm

zaq wrote:

I beg to differ. Not because I personally feel that way, but because I am well acquainted with several rabbis including an acknowledged posek and a dayan, serving communities that are NOT chassidish and that wouldn't even be called strictly yeshivish, who told their constituents beferush "eating non-CY is like eating tref." In those exact words.

And there are rabbis that say going to a male gynecologist is giloy arayos. Just because a rabbi says it, doesn't make it so.

mommy3b2c

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 7:59 pm

simba wrote:

Ima, sorry for shocking you with the truth. It may not be the truth for you that is why I was non-judgemenal in my post about which shita you hold by.

Just to clarify, I don't mean treif as in pig meat, I am referring to a non-certified kosher product. Most Orthodox Jews do only eat foods that are certified kosher even though the ingredients may all read ask kosher.

I do not respect your mocking tone. Feel free to snicker to yourself about fanatic Jews. This is a public forum with all types of people and being respectful is the standard here.

Don't be rude. I didn't mock you, but you are certainly being nasty to me.

simba

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 8:03 pm

mommy3b2c wrote:

And there are rabbis that say going to a male gynecologist is giloy arayos. Just because a rabbi says it, doesn't make it so.

And just because people mock what others rabbii's tell them it doesn't make it mocking.. go figure.

cnc

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 8:12 pm

amother wrote:

My Rav told me that people have sadly fardreit Rav Moshe Feinstien's psak. He was never Mattir the type of CA of today.

No one eats or allows Chalav Akum today. It's assur according to all opinions. There's a machlokes regarding Chalav Stam.