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-> Halachic Questions and Discussions
imasinger
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 Tue, Jun 06 2017, 8:15 pm
| amother wrote: | | My Rav said that the heter on which -D is based is fardreit from what Rav Moshe Feinstein really paskend. |
You said that already. I'm asking WHAT is different.
Not because I want to change anyone's mind, but because I want to understand what the difference of opinion is based on.
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amother
Powderblue
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Tue, Jun 06 2017, 8:26 pm
| imasinger wrote: | You said that already. I'm asking WHAT is different.
Not because I want to change anyone's mind, but because I want to understand what the difference of opinion is based on. |
I can ask my Rav if I can post his contact info.
He's gonna be able to explain it to you better than me.
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farm
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Tue, Jun 06 2017, 8:29 pm
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Not sure what that word even means but perhaps her rav was referring to the surgery that is commonly done theses days where the cow's intestines are stapled that makes them halachically treifos. The CY farms don't allow this in their farms. I guess the OU has a heter somehow that is somewhat controversial. Truthfully we keep CY l'chumra so I never bothered researching this further. But my understanding is that this was a game changer that brought the application of r' moshe's psak into question nowadays.
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amother
Silver
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Tue, Jun 06 2017, 8:31 pm
If R' Moshe gave a Heter for Chalav Stam 60 years ago, back when people asked b/c it was very difficult to get Chalav Yisrael milk and milk products, then why are we still using this Heter today when it's very easy to get anything chalav yisrael, (except swissmiss pudding:)?
I don't understand what the Heter is for these days.
(I'm not referring to small Jewish communities that have difficulty obtaining chalav yisrael products).
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amother
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Tue, Jun 06 2017, 8:33 pm
| amother wrote: | If R' Moshe gave a Heter for Chalav Stam 60 years ago, back when people asked b/c it was very difficult to get Chalav Yisrael milk and milk products, then why are we still using this Heter today when it's very easy to get anything chalav yisrael, (except swissmiss pudding:)?
I don't understand what the Heter is for these days.
(I'm not referring to small Jewish communities that have difficulty obtaining chalav yisrael products). |
This is only ONE of the reasons the Heter is not valid today's days.
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amother
Powderblue
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Tue, Jun 06 2017, 8:36 pm
| farm wrote: | | Not sure what that word even means but perhaps her rav was referring to the surgery that is commonly done theses days where the cow's intestines are stapled that makes them halachically treifos. The CY farms don't allow this in their farms. |
There are CY farms that have cows that were operated
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Seas
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Tue, Jun 06 2017, 9:39 pm
| zaq wrote: | | I beg to differ. Not because I personally feel that way, but because I am well acquainted with several rabbis including an acknowledged posek and a dayan, serving communities that are NOT chassidish and that wouldn't even be called strictly yeshivish, who told their constituents beferush "eating non-CY is like eating tref." In those exact words. |
Chalav akum/stam is cow's or goat's milk that was milked without a frum Jew watching. It is assur midrabanan - just the same as bishul akum, chicken meat with milk and wine that a non-jew touched.
The reasoning behind the issur is the risk of a farmer mixing in milk from a non-kosher animal. Even if we personally wouldn't suspect the farmer of doing such a thing, the halacha doesn't change and it's absolutely assur.
As such it's apt to label it treif.
R' Moshe Ztz"l held that when the milk is produced by a company that is subject to governmental controls, it is as if we supervised it, as there is clear knowledge that the farmer wouldn't mix anything in.
Most other great poskim didn't accept this heter, for various reasons. Those who did, invented a new term, 'chalav stam'. This was done in order to make chalav akum more palatable so to speak. In reality chalav stam is just a dif term for chalav akum.
It's important to bear in mind that even according to R' Moshe, the heter is only in situations where there is a strict governmental control. IOW R' Moshe didn't do away with the issur of chalav akum, nor did he render chalav Yisroel a mere chumra. He only paskened that in specific circumstances non supervised milk doesn't have the status of chalav akum.
What is true, as one poster wrote, is that in case of pikuach nefesh it would be preferable to drink chalav akum rather than eat treif meat. This is because the former is an issur midrabanan and the latter an issur midoiraisa.
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amother
Denim
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Tue, Jun 06 2017, 9:46 pm
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I agree with what you wrote, Seas, except for the part that Chalav Stam is another word for Chalav Akum. That is wrong. Chalav akum is milk that was not supervised by anyone. Chalav stam is milk that was supervised by the administration of a government law. They are not at all equivalent.
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cnc
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Tue, Jun 06 2017, 9:49 pm
| Seas wrote: | Chalav akum/stam is cow's or goat's milk that was milked without a frum Jew watching. It is assur midrabanan - just the same as bishul akum, chicken meat with milk and wine that a non-jew touched.
The reasoning behind the issur is the risk of a farmer mixing in milk from a non-kosher animal. Even if we personally wouldn't suspect the farmer of doing such a thing, the halacha doesn't change and it's absolutely assur.
As such it's apt to label it treif.
R' Moshe Ztz"l held that when the milk is produced by a company that is subject to governmental controls, it is as if we supervised it, as there is clear knowledge that the farmer wouldn't mix anything in.
Most other great poskim didn't accept this heter, for various reasons. Those who did, invented a new term, 'chalav stam'. This was done in order to make chalav akum more palatable so to speak. In reality chalav stam is just a dif term for chalav akum.
It's important to bear in mind that even according to R' Moshe, the heter is only in situations where there is a strict governmental control. IOW R' Moshe didn't do away with the issur of chalav akum, nor did he render chalav Yisroel a mere chumra. He only paskened that in specific circumstances non supervised milk doesn't have the status of chalav akum.
What is true, as one poster wrote, is that in case of pikuach nefesh it would be preferable to drink chalav akum rather than eat treif meat. This is because the former is an issur midrabanan and the latter an issur midoiraisa. |
This is absolutely incorrect. Chalav Stam and Chalav Akum are two different things and they're not interchangeable. Everyone holds that is assur without a question to eat or drink Chalav Akum. Some people rely on R' Moshe's heter for Chalav Stam. (My family doesn't and holds that is completely assur and the heter isn't for today's days where CY is readily available.)
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cnc
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Tue, Jun 06 2017, 9:51 pm
| amother wrote: | | I agree with what you wrote, Seas, except for the part that Chalav Stam is another word for Chalav Akum. That is wrong. Chalav akum is milk that was not supervised by anyone. Chalav stam is milk that was supervised by the administration of a government law. They are not at all equivalent. |
Exactly - another term for Chalav Stam is Chalav Hacompanies ....(not sure if that's my Halacha teacher's phrase or R' Moshe's....)
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amother
Indigo
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Tue, Jun 06 2017, 9:51 pm
| doctorima wrote: | There are two separate issues here, the halachic status of chalav stam, and your decision for many years to keep CY. Even if there is a reliable opinion to permit chalav stam, the issue of violating a neder you took on (any commendable practice that's kept 3 times without saying "bli neder" takes on the status of a neder) is completely separate.
Perhaps a Rav will tell you that you can rely on Kol Nidrei or hataras nedarim for this, but that's not clear at all. Definitely ask your LOR and if you plan to continue with chalav stam, you should certainly do hataras nedarim for the future. |
This is not always true. Depends on a situation. I grew up eating c'y. I married my dh who was adamantly against eating only c'y. For years I kept c'y anyway. One day, I just couldn't control myself with all the yummy non-c'y stuff in the house and I had something that wasn't c'y. We asked LOR, and I did not have to do hataras nedarim. It was fine.
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Seas
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Tue, Jun 06 2017, 9:55 pm
| amother wrote: | | I agree with what you wrote, Seas, except for the part that Chalav Stam is another word for Chalav Akum. That is wrong. Chalav akum is milk that was not supervised by anyone. Chalav stam is milk that was supervised by the administration of a government law. They are not at all equivalent. |
Not supervised per se (in the way a kashrus mashgiach supervises), only subject to governmental controls.
Those who didn't accept the aforementioned heter don't differentiate between this milk and any other unsupervised milk, and both are termed chalav akum. Indeed there term chalav stam (aka chalav ha-companies) is a contemporary social invention, not a halachic one.
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mommy3b2c
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Tue, Jun 06 2017, 9:56 pm
| simba wrote: | | And just because people mock what others rabbii's tell them it doesn't make it mocking.. go figure. |
Sorry. I lost you...no idea what you're trying to say.
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amother
Denim
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Tue, Jun 06 2017, 10:01 pm
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You cant say Chalav ha companies is not an halachic term, Seas. It was said by one of the world's greatest poseks.
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cnc
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Tue, Jun 06 2017, 10:03 pm
| Seas wrote: | Not supervised per se (in the way a kashrus mashgiach supervises), only subject to governmental controls.
Those who didn't accept the aforementioned heter don't differentiate between this milk and any other unsupervised milk, and both are termed chalav akum. Indeed there term chalav stam (aka chalav ha-companies) is a contemporary social invention, not a halachic one. |
My father, Halacha teacher and the sources we used when learning differentiate between them.
In fact it was stressed a number of times that they're not the same thing.
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Seas
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Tue, Jun 06 2017, 10:05 pm
| amother wrote: | | You cant say Chalav ha companies is not an halachic term, Seas. It was said by one of the world's greatest poseks. |
R' Moshe wasn't inventing a new halachic term, he was merely referring to milk produced by companies (that are subject to governmental controls). In Hebrew this is called chalav ha-companies (lit. the milk of the companies).
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yksraya
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Tue, Jun 06 2017, 10:06 pm
I don't know the accuracy of this, but have heard that r'moshe only gave the heter "once" to someone in a circumstance that warranted the heter. And other ppl who heard abt it just decided to use the heter for themselves.
He in no way gave this heter to the public.
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tichellady
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Tue, Jun 06 2017, 10:14 pm
| yksraya wrote: | I don't know the accuracy of this, but have heard that r'moshe only gave the heter "once" to someone in a circumstance that warranted the heter. And other ppl who heard abt it just decided to use the heter for themselves.
He in no way gave this heter to the public. |
This is not accurate.
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amother
Violet
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Tue, Jun 06 2017, 10:15 pm
| zaq wrote: | | I beg to differ. Not because I personally feel that way, but because I am well acquainted with several rabbis including an acknowledged posek and a dayan, serving communities that are NOT chassidish and that wouldn't even be called strictly yeshivish, who told their constituents beferush "eating non-CY is like eating tref." In those exact words. |
Gimme a break! This is clearly only ONE opinion. I know someone well who is as Yeshivish as you can get, her husband learned for 30 + years, and when shes on vacation where theres no CY she drinks CS.
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amother
Denim
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Tue, Jun 06 2017, 10:17 pm
FWIW, I'm getting bored with this thread.
I think I'll go eat some 
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