How bad is it to eat chalav stam if you hold CY?

amother

Vermilion

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 10:23 pm

Seas wrote:

Chalav akum/stam is cow's or goat's milk that was milked without a frum Jew watching. It is assur midrabanan - just the same as bishul akum, chicken meat with milk and wine that a non-jew touched.

The reasoning behind the issur is the risk of a farmer mixing in milk from a non-kosher animal. Even if we personally wouldn't suspect the farmer of doing such a thing, the halacha doesn't change and it's absolutely assur.

As such it's apt to label it treif.

R' Moshe Ztz"l held that when the milk is produced by a company that is subject to governmental controls, it is as if we supervised it, as there is clear knowledge that the farmer wouldn't mix anything in.

Most other great poskim didn't accept this heter, for various reasons. Those who did, invented a new term, 'chalav stam'. This was done in order to make chalav akum more palatable so to speak. In reality chalav stam is just a dif term for chalav akum.

It's important to bear in mind that even according to R' Moshe, the heter is only in situations where there is a strict governmental control. IOW R' Moshe didn't do away with the issur of chalav akum, nor did he render chalav Yisroel a mere chumra. He only paskened that in specific circumstances non supervised milk doesn't have the status of chalav akum.

What is true, as one poster wrote, is that in case of pikuach nefesh it would be preferable to drink chalav akum rather than eat treif meat. This is because the former is an issur midrabanan and the latter an issur midoiraisa.

Assur is not a synonym for treif. Treif is a fairly modern Yiddish word.

It assur to drink milk where there was no supervision, because of the risk involved. That doesn't mean the milk is treif - it means drinking it is not permitted.

amother

Wine

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 10:28 pm

zaq wrote:

I beg to differ. Not because I personally feel that way, but because I am well acquainted with several rabbis including an acknowledged posek and a dayan, serving communities that are NOT chassidish and that wouldn't even be called strictly yeshivish, who told their constituents beferush "eating non-CY is like eating tref." In those exact words.

Oh dear, how could my Rav have told me it was perfectly fine to eat treif when I asked if I could follow my husband's minhag and eat chalav stam when I got married???

I better warn my community! Everyone I know asks their halachic shailas to him and it turns out that he is an ignoramus.

amother

Violet

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 11:04 pm

amother wrote:

Tsk tsk tsk.. ROTFLMHO

salt

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 2:06 am

amother wrote:

Treif is a Yiddish word,
Comes from the Torah
ובשר בשדה טרפה לא תאכלו לכלב תשליכון אותו

But the original meaning of the Torah word Treifa is an animal that is wounded and will die of it's wounds (loose meaning).

Nowadays, the word treif is used to mean anything not kosher.

pause

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 9:06 am

FWIW I also learned that chalav stam is a new category that hadn't existed years back. There was chalav akum and chalav yisroel. Anything that's not chalav yisroel is chalav akum. Chalav stam came about in the 1900s in the US because of governmental inspections which give something to rely on. Only those who hold of this heter differentiate between akum and stam. If you don't hold by the heter, there's no difference at all because (what we refer to as) chalav stam is the precise definition of chalav akum, I.e. milk that was milked without a yid being present.

Chalav akum is distinctly assur and nobody allows that. IOW, if you are in a third world country and you buy cow's milk from the farmer who assures you that it's 100% cow's milk, that would be chalav akum and completely assur.

cnc

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 9:29 am

pause wrote:

Your first paragraph sort of contradicts your second.
Would you not trust the kashrus of someone that keeps Chalav Stam?

I don't eat Chalav Stam in or out of the house but I would trust the kashrus of someone that does while I wouldn't trust the kashrus of someone that uses Chalav Akum.

I don't hold of the heter but as I wrote previously there's definitely a differentiation between the two.

When I was taught that CS is assur , it was still stressed many times that the phrases CS and CA should not be interchanged.

amother

Olive

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 9:35 am

cnc wrote:

Would you not trust the kashrus of someone that keeps Chalav Stam?
.

That question wasn't directed to me, but I just want to say that the answer can easily be no. Not that I don't 'trust' them, but I might not eat their food.
Not because I think they are doing anything wrong for the way they hold, but if I am more strict about what comes in my kitchen and they use ingredients that I don't then I'm really not sure that I would eat in their house.

amother

White

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 9:39 am

amother wrote:

Many of us who keep CY also have an issue with the keilim. So even if someone who ate cholov stam tells me they are going to buy all CY ingredients so I can come eat there, I still would not.

mo5

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 9:48 am

pause wrote:

FWIW I also learned that chalav stam is a new category.....

Chalav akum is distinctly assur and nobody allows that. IOW, if you are in a third world country and you buy cow's milk from the farmer who assures you that it's 100% cow's milk, that would be chalav akum and completely assur.

Just to add, I believe that even in a first world country, if you bought directly from the farmer (not through the regulated factories etc) milk, even if he assured you it was cows milk, it would be chalav akum even according to the modern differentiation of 'chalav stam'

pause

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 10:42 am

cnc wrote:

It's not a contradiction at all.

I didn't say the terms are interchangeable. Obviously there is a major difference in the essence of CS and CA. If there was no difference we wouldn't need two different names. Smile

However, the practical application of CS and CA to those who don't use R' Moshe's psak are the same; both products are equally assur. I can trust the kashrus of the person, who uses CS, but I wouldn't eat any of their food. IOW, the person who uses CS is still a trustworthy person, as a person, as a frum Yid, but there would be no practical difference to me. (Unless I was considering giving them an aliyah in shul or something else like that...)

Last edited by pause on Wed, Jun 07 2017, 10:44 am; edited 1 time in total

cnc

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 10:47 am

amother wrote:

Many of us who keep CY also have an issue with the keilim. So even if someone who ate cholov stam tells me they are going to buy all CY ingredients so I can come eat there, I still would not.

But I would eat pareve or fleishigs there (provided I eat the other hechsheirim and meats that they do.) OTOH if someone eats actual CA- I wouldn't eat anything at all in their house.

mommy3b2c

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 10:49 am

pause wrote:

So you wouldn't eat chicken in my house because I eat chalav Stam?

cnc

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 10:51 am

amother wrote:

Very valid point. On second thought, I think my question should really be if they have neemanus in your eyes vs if you trust their kashrus/ will eat in their houses .

IOW- I absolutely will trust someone that eats CS to check eggs for blood spots properly, kasher or used kashered chickens etc.... ( unless I have specific reasons not to trust that have nothing to do with CS...)
OTOH- I don't trust that someone who uses CA in that sense because they're eating something that is assur without a doubt.

pause

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 10:55 am

cnc wrote:

Right. That's what I was trying to say by trusting their kashrus as a person. The person is still kosher in my eyes, meaning I can trust this person to be a shomer Torah u'mitzvos in whichever capacity it is applicable to me.

amother

Olive

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 10:59 am

mommy3b2c wrote:

So you wouldn't eat chicken in my house because I eat chalav Stam?

It has never really come up for me since most people in our community circle don't eat CS so I don't have a definite answer though possibly not.
I don't mean it as an offence, and absolutely I trust your kashrus is on a high standard. However, when people eat some things that we don't then there is a possibility that they have other ingredients as well that I wouldn't use. It might just be a yardstick for us to think that perhaps we are more stringent in other small areas as well of what food we would buy.

mommy3b2c

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 11:01 am

amother wrote:

But if you trust me as a person, wouldn't you trust that I would make sure to only use ingredients that are fine with you?

My brothers don't eat challah stam, but they have no problem eating at my house. They know I would never serve them chalav stam. They trust me as a person.

MiracleMama

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 11:06 am

amother wrote:

I do eat chalav stam; however there are those who call it treif because of needled cows.
I would not eat OU tuna, but yes, I eat OUD products because letchila we pasken there is no issue with the few needled cows, but that OU tuna is on b'dieved ok...

What is the concern with OU tuna?