How bad is it to eat chalav stam if you hold CY?

amother

Olive

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 11:07 am

mommy3b2c wrote:

But if you trust me as a person, wouldn't you trust that I would make sure to only use ingredients that are fine with you?

My brothers don't eat challah stam, but they have no problem eating at my house. They know I would never serve them chalav stam. They trust me as a person.

It doesn't have anything to do with trust, but to do with what ingredients people use.
If it would be my sibling then I would know what other food they eat.
But, lets say as an example, I only eat meat with certain hechsherim - how do I know that you do as well?(eg. I live in Israel and I wouldn't eat by someone who eats rabbanut chickens and others. Many people eat it and I would absolutely still trust you as doing the right thing if you do, but I still wouldn't eat in your house.)

Of course this has nothing to do with CS though if I know that you eat CS then I would more think that perhaps there are other things that you eat that I don't as well. (Of course that's just using pure generalization and it doesn't specially mean that at all.)

princessleah

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 11:19 am

FYI from OU website:

Quote:

What is the difference between OU-D and OU-D Cholov Yisroel ?

Milk has Cholov Yisroel status when the milking and bottling is done under the supervision of a reliable Jewish person who ensures that the milk is only coming from a kosher animal. In general, the OU follows the opinion of Rav Moshe Feinstein zt”l, and others, that government inspection of dairies is equivalent to a Mashgiach’s supervision, whereby the status of the milk from these dairies is halachically equivalent to that of Cholov Yisroel. Not all Poskim accept the position of Rav Moshe, and those who follow the more stringent opinion should only use OU products which are specifically labeled Cholov Yisroel, an indication that the milking and bottling were supervised by a Mashgiach.

Seas

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 12:11 pm

amother wrote:

It has never really come up for me since most people in our community circle don't eat CS so I don't have a definite answer though possibly not.
I don't mean it as an offence, and absolutely I trust your kashrus is on a high standard. However, when people eat some things that we don't then there is a possibility that they have other ingredients as well that I wouldn't use. It might just be a yardstick for us to think that perhaps we are more stringent in other small areas as well of what food we would buy.

Since even R' Moshe wrote that a baal nefesh (someone who cares about frumkeit) should refrain from consuming unsupervised milk, by definition the kashrus of someone who does use it, isn't on a high level.

Trust isn't afforded automatically - it has to be earned. And even the trust which is afforded by default to all frum Yidden, is diminished when you know for sure those Yidden rely on questionable kullos for no real reason.

(To clarify: by 'questionable' I mean a kullo which the vast majority of R' Moshe's contemporaries didn't accept. And by 'no real reason' I mean consuming unsupervised milk in a day and age when supervised dairy products are so readily available - even if they don't taste as good as the non-supervised equivalent.)

amother

White

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 12:19 pm

Seas wrote:

We keep CY very strictly. I can't agree with this statement though. I know plenty of people who eat CS and they are more machmir in certain other areas than I am. Like bugs. (Well, excessive fear of bugs I guess I should say. I don't think I'm eating any bugs). I eat strawberries (unpealed!) and I eat asparagus (I do not chop the tops off) and they wont. You really can't make a blanket statement like that. I don't think I am doing anything wrong eating my berries and they don't think they are doing anything wrong drinking their milk.

tichellady

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 1:39 pm

Seas wrote:

This post is just ludicrous. Do you think it's ok to bash the majority of frum Jews?
I live in an orthodox community, have lots of frum family members and friends, went to yeshiva day school and high school and spent a year in Israel after high school and I can count on one hand the number of people who eat chalav yisroel exclusively in the US. Some of those people are my relatives and they do eat in my home as long as the food is chalav yisroel, pareve or meat. Seas, you are just creating more tension and disturbance within the Jewish people with this ridiculous statement and judgement

sleepybeauty

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 2:39 pm

Seas wrote:

Trust isn't afforded automatically - it has to be earned. And even the trust which is afforded by default to all frum Yidden, is diminished when you know for sure those Yidden rely on questionable kullos for no real reason.

(To clarify: by 'questionable' I mean a kullo which the vast majority of R' Moshe's contemporaries didn't accept. And by 'no real reason' I mean consuming unsupervised milk in a day and age when supervised dairy products are so readily available - even if they don't taste as good as the non-supervised equivalent.)

Seas, do you feel the same way about yoshon? Do you forbid your children from going to friends who don't keep yoshon?

mommy3b2c

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 2:50 pm

Seas wrote:

Are you as strict with bein adom l'chaveiro mitzvos as with kashrus?

farm

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 3:10 pm

mommy3b2c wrote:

Are you as strict with bein adom l'chaveiro mitzvos as with kashrus?

Come on 3b2c, that has nothing to do with this conversation. You asked, she answered.
If someone tells you that they only discuss Torah at all of their Shabbos meals as a chumra, would you ask them how much hair they allow to stick out of their snood? That's kind of rude. We all have things we work on and things we put aside for later. And things that come easier or more naturally to us and things we find very difficult. Please don't derail this interesting conversation.

mommy3b2c

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 3:13 pm

farm wrote:

Sorry, but there was something very condescending about her post. So many said such similar things without sounding condescending.

tichellady

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 3:18 pm

farm wrote:

A better example would be if someone tells you that anyone who doesn't only discuss Torah at all of their Shabbat meals should not be trusted in terms of kashrut- would you think that person is being rude. Did you actually read seas post? She is not talking about working on things, she is putting down frum Jews who don't keep cholov Yisroel. She is being rude

amother

Violet

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 3:59 pm

There were people during the Holocaust era, who would rather die than eat anything they felt wasnt kosher.

I think all Gdolim (Litvish for sure, possibly Chassidish too) in America in pre- Chalav Yisroel days drank Chalav Stam.

People dont need milk to survive. They could have survived on produce and vitamins.

If they thought it was the equivalent of Treif, would they have drank it?

amother

Olive

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 4:02 pm

amother wrote:

I think all Gdolim (Litvish for sure, possibly Chassidish too) in America in pre- Chalav Yisroel days drank Chalav Stam.

I would be very surprised if this were true - do you know this as a fact or you are just assuming this?

cnc

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 4:03 pm

amother wrote:

OOC, what are pre- CY days?
When my father had no access to CY when upstate years ago, he supervised the cow being milked rendering the milk CY.

Seas

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 4:04 pm

tichellady wrote:

No I'm not.

The question was directly asked whether one who is makpid on CY would eat in the home of one who isn't.

In the ensuing discussion I made the point that someone who - under normal circumstances - uses unsupervised milk is by definition displaying a laxity in kashrus. This is because even R' Moshe who was mattir wrote that a baal nefesh should be machmir.

This doesn't necessarily mean they're lax in other areas, neither does it mean any one who is makpid on CY runs a perfectly kosher kitchen. Nor is this by any means bashing other Jews.

However the question was asked regarding trusting the kashrus of one who isn't particular about CY, and to that I replied that displaying a laxity in an area of kashrus diminishes one's trustworthiness in kashrus in general.

Last edited by Seas on Wed, Jun 07 2017, 4:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

Raisin

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 4:15 pm

cnc wrote:

OOC, what are pre- CY days?
When my father had no access to CY when upstate years ago, he supervised the cow being milked rendering the milk CY.

I've heard this too, about recent immigrants from Eastern Europe 100 years ago going to watch cows being milked, but I don't know how widespread this was.

People then made a lot more stuff from scratch, so making soft cheese, butter, cream, sour cream was (and is) fairly simple once you had milk.

amother

Wine

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 4:19 pm

Seas wrote:

We aren't makpid on yoshon (outside of EY). Most chassidim aren't.

The majority of rishonim and poskim hold that it applies everywhere. Allowing Chodosh in Chutz Laaretz is a heter which possibly doesn't apply nowadays either, especially since one can easily get yoshon.
I'm curious why it's okay to accept the minority opinion on yoshon but claim that those who do so for chalav yisrael are lax in their Kashrus.

amother

Vermilion

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 4:19 pm

Seas wrote:

there is a fairly large space between a person who is lax in kashrus to a person who is a baal nefesh.

Lets talk more about who is a baal nefesh.