Legal/Halachic/Ethical Question

amother

Taupe

Thu, Sep 07 2017, 1:31 pm

A professional in private practice charges a credit card fee for clients who pay by credit card. The professional also accepts checks or cash. Out of convenience for a client who prefers to pay by credit card, the professional offered that the client could directly pay tuition to the professional's child's school (which doesn't charge a credit card fee). Assuming it's the professional's responsibility to claim the income and pay taxes accordingly, is there anything wrong with the client paying the professional in this way (by paying for the professional's personal expense) from a legal, Halachic, or ethical perspective?

seeker

Thu, Sep 07 2017, 4:57 pm

Well, legally one would consult a lawyer, halachically one would consult a posek, and to me ethics means following the law and the halacha.
But personally I think that if it is a known thing in certain communities or locations that people do this kind of setup to evade taxes, then I would not have any part in it even though it is technically possible that the professional will do all the correct record-keeping and reporting. But if that's not the case, then I'd say it's awkward in terms of the professional-client relationship but otherwise OK (as long as there is no legal objection)

Interesting that the school doesn't charge a CC fee, don't they end up taking a loss that way?

33055

Thu, Sep 07 2017, 5:03 pm

amother wrote:

If the professional declares the income and pays taxes on it, I think it is fine. If the professional doesn't declare the income, then you could be an accomplice to tax fraud and/ or other government and private frauds.

Check with your attorney in your jurisdiction.

Halachically, it is probably fine. I say that because I see this done all the time. Organizations will pay grocery bills instead of salary.

zaq

Thu, Sep 07 2017, 5:19 pm

Squishy wrote:

Halachically, it is probably fine. I say that because I see this done all the time.

Oh, Squishy, Squishy, Squishy....did you REALLY say that? Do you really think that?

33055

Thu, Sep 07 2017, 5:25 pm

zaq wrote:

Oh, Squishy, Squishy, Squishy....did you REALLY say that? Do you really think that?

I don't think that it is ethical, but then many things in halacha are not ethical.

zaq

Thu, Sep 07 2017, 5:37 pm

Squishy wrote:

I don't think that it is ethical, but then many things in halacha are not ethical.

Very badly put, dear. The better way to say it is that many things may be technically within the letter of halacha but not in the spirit of the law.

But that's not what I was getting at. I meant your shockingly naive statement that it must be OK because many people do this. REALLY? That's your criterion? After all the many scandals that have rocked the frum community in recent years, you still believe that "lots of people do it" is a reliable hechsher?

33055

Thu, Sep 07 2017, 5:47 pm

zaq wrote:

It is not just that lots of people do it. It is that it is done by many religious organizations and many learned Rabbis who would never knowingly violate halacha.

It is not something I am personally ok with, but it is done all the time.

The scandals that rock the community are not necessarily against halacha either. Your statement is niave.

amother

Blonde

Thu, Sep 07 2017, 7:54 pm

Squishy wrote:

The professional would need to check with the ethical and bookkeeping guidelines of his professional licencing body

Also relevant is how the professional is set-up. Sole Practitioner, Single Member LLC, Corporation etc.

Organizations paying an employees grocery bill instead of a salary is a taxable benefit to the employee. If they aren't including it on the employee's W-2, its wrong. Other than not following the laws of the land - of course there is no halachic issue, halacha doesn't refer to the internal revenue code.

33055

Thu, Sep 07 2017, 8:05 pm

amother wrote:

It's more than the IRS that gets cheated. Schools get cheated. Spouses who are divorcing get cheated. Children don't receive adequate child support, etc.

amother

Blonde

Thu, Sep 07 2017, 8:09 pm

Squishy wrote:

It's more than the IRS that gets cheated. Schools get cheated. Spouses who are divorcing get cheated. Children don't receive adequate child support, etc.

yes its bad all around then..

LittleDucky

Thu, Sep 07 2017, 9:42 pm

Sounds like boundary violations to me... I would look into the professional licensing body of that individual. In healthcare (including mental), I would say that is a big no-no. The relationship needs to be purely professional.
What if they don't pay the school?
What about taxes etc - check with an attorney.

Seas

Thu, Sep 07 2017, 10:11 pm

It's ironic that very often the same people who are extremely lax with following the Shulchan Aruch and Torah laws - and of course we mustn't judge them for after all in 'their community' this is the (sub)standard - are so extremely particular, or at least pretend to be extreme particular, in following the laws of the land. Specifically tax laws.

33055

Thu, Sep 07 2017, 10:25 pm

Seas wrote:

It is possible to do both. In addition, it is possible to have your own moral code higher than halacha and the law of the land.

tichellady

Thu, Sep 07 2017, 10:48 pm

Seas wrote:

What's ironic about that? Different communities tend to have different values and priorities. I don't see any irony in that.

amother

Maroon

Thu, Sep 07 2017, 10:48 pm

seeker wrote:

Almost any business that takes cash, evades taxes. That includes my plumber, mechanic, pizza store, babysitter, piano teacher, my kids tutor, and others. Does that mean I can't buy a pie of pizza with cash because I strongly suspect the store owner doesn't report every dollar?

amother

Plum

Thu, Sep 07 2017, 11:07 pm

Question for all you righteous imamothers who report every dollar. Are your nannies and cleaning ladies on the books? When you file taxes how do you answer the question of did you make any out of state purchases and not pay sales tax?

tichellady

Thu, Sep 07 2017, 11:16 pm

amother wrote:

She asked it there was a legal or halakhic issue. People answered with their opinions. They didn't say that they always report every $ or always do what they think is ethical.
Plenty of people do pay their nannies on the books. Others don't. That doesn't change the answer to this question. I'm picking up on a strong feeling of guilt in this thread from certain people responding

33055

Thu, Sep 07 2017, 11:25 pm

amother wrote:

Paying a professional's personal bills directly on a credit card instead of paying the business for services rendered is a far cry from buying a slice of pizza.

pause

Thu, Sep 07 2017, 11:29 pm

Squishy wrote:

It is possible to do both. In addition, it is possible to have your own moral code higher than halacha and the law of the land.

I'm assuming you meant as in lifnim meshuras hadin, yes?