S/O secular college- Stern

amother

Periwinkle

Tue, Oct 10 2017, 12:38 pm

amother wrote:

I'm still not getting the objection to Stern. No one has voiced a real concern about the exposure there except the vague buzzword Zionism. So is it that it will be hard to get a yeshivish or chassidish shidduch if you go there because it will associate you with "mo".

I'm sure it will be harder to get a yeshivish or chassidish shidduch with a degree from Stern. But I think the real objection is deeper.

If you raise your children to believe that exposure to secular learning will lead them away from yiddishkeit, and then they meet frum Jews whose education actually enhances their avodas Hashem, you have a problem on your hands. Your daughter will wonder what else you've lied about.

Raisin

Tue, Oct 10 2017, 12:50 pm

I guess you guys all missed this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12......html

(although, your takeaway from that might be be that Stern specifically does not tolerate this type of thing)

I'm sure Stern is a wonderful college for the right person but I think its important to be aware that there are different types of people there. I would also expect any girl who goes there to be more easily influenced by the prevailing hashkafah then if they commuted to a secular college. That could be a good thing, but it also could be not.

MagentaYenta

Tue, Oct 10 2017, 1:10 pm

Raisin wrote:

...
(although, your takeaway from that might be be that Stern specifically does not tolerate this type of thing)...

Stern may not tolerate the behavior but there is little they can do to stop it. These are adults. From reading the story in question the assignations took place off campus. They cannot surveil every student they think is $exually active. It's merely a caveat emptor. Remember human behavior is pretty consistent. There is a whole spectrum of young adults attending Stern, not all may believe in celibacy prior to marriage. You would expect them to but sometimes it's wise to lower one's expectations especially when it comes to young adults discovering life on their own for the first time after coming from a sheltered home.

SixOfWands

Tue, Oct 10 2017, 1:13 pm

Raisin wrote:

Six years ago, a single young woman wrote an article claiming that she engages in anonymous zexual activity, and people are writing off an entire university as a result?

So does that mean every time there's an article about right-wing charedim who flout the rules and "swing" or engage in other activities that are not halachically permissible, I should write off all charedim?

If I know a woman who had a "friends with benefits" relationship with a Chassid from Monsey, I should assume that its common?

Let's all be honest. They don't want their kids at Stern or YU not because they will be influenced by students who are not acting in accordance with halacha, but because they don't want their kids believing that MO people actually are acting in accordance with halacha.

amother

Coffee

Tue, Oct 10 2017, 1:49 pm

Twenty years ago my parents didn't want me to go to Stern because the culture/atmosphere at that time was to prioritize getting engaged to a YU/Einstein guy. They heard stories from then-students about how every other week there'd be a gaggle of girls gathered in a dorm room screaming mazal tov and decorating the engaged girl's door. They wanted me in an environment where I could focus on my studies and not feel pressure to get engaged while still in college which I didn't want for myself either.
I was fine with their decision because I myself was turned off by what I heard about Stern in Michlalah from my roommates who had already been there one year due to early admission. They were looking at some of their fellow less religious students as "nebuchs" (they used that exact word) rather than saying B'H these girls are at least in a Jewish environment. I didn't want to go to a school where less religious girls are nebuchs, that just didn't sit well with me.

amother

Smokey

Tue, Oct 10 2017, 3:41 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

You're right I think. And also it's laughable that parents wouldn't want their kids to go to YU, where it was scandalous to write about a premarital s-xual encounter. You're going to hear and see a whole lot worse at any secular college!

mommyhood

Tue, Oct 10 2017, 4:23 pm

When someone in the yeshiva world hears that a girl went to Stern they assume she went there for the Modern Orthodox social scene along with an education. When they hear she went to a secular school they think she went there for the education only and kept her distance from the secular culture as much as possible.
There is a big fear of stigma and while it might not make sense to us it's the world that OP is living in.

DrMom

Tue, Oct 10 2017, 4:50 pm

To be honest, I can relate to some of the attitudes expressed here.

For example, if my only choice for elementary school for my sons was a chareidi cheder or a public school, I'd probably choose the public school (and supplement kodesh studies using tutors).

I think the hashkafa and educational values they would get in a chareidi cheder would be very far from the ideals I want to instill in my children.

Raisin

Tue, Oct 10 2017, 5:09 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

If a chareidi newspaper - or to be specific, a newspaper associated with a chareidi institution - wrote an article excusing swinging or tax evasion, yes, you would hold that institution accountable.

In fact, one of the frum magazines published an article some years ago that was supporting Weberman, the counselor who abused a young williamsburg girl. I have never bought that magazine ever since.

I'm sure many chareidi yeshivos, seminaries and colleges have students who engage in extra marital s-x. The issue here was writing an article about it in a university publication.

SixOfWands

Tue, Oct 10 2017, 5:32 pm

Raisin wrote:

The article was written by a particular person, and was not identified as fiction or fact. It was not endorsed as a good thing, nor was it condemned as a bad thing. It just .... was. Moreover, it was a student publication, and the article itself was not vetted or approved by the administration. In fact, the administration asked that it be removed and (IIRC), it was at least threatened that the publication's ties to the school be severed because of the article.

Being purposely vague ... when I was in college, a well-known and controversial public figure was shot. An editor of the school's newspaper included a personal thought in the publication -- he was sorry the person survived. First Amendment be darned. He was kicked off the newspaper, and nearly kicked out of school. Do you nevertheless attribute his comment to the school. a decade (or more) later?

icebreaker

Tue, Oct 10 2017, 6:12 pm

This is such an interesting topic as I went to secular colleges and work at the college I got my degree at lol. I had no idea Stern had a reputation. I learn so much on here lol. I remember my mom suggesting Stern many moons ago when I was college searching but I said no because I wanted to do the opposite of whatever she said in those days. I never even considered it but now, reading this thread and the others, it looks like it would've been an ok fit lol.

amother

Bronze

Tue, Oct 10 2017, 6:44 pm

amother wrote:

That wasn't my parents objection. Remember - were talking about those that believe in secular education in general. The problem is affiliating yourself (somewhat closely by attending the institution) with MO. Not because of untruths told and taught, and discovering lies. My parents are very clear about MO being a legitimate derech, and never tolerated badmouthing or putting them down (no "JB" allowed! Derech eretz for a Talmud Chacham!) yet not ours and not for us.

Raisin

Tue, Oct 10 2017, 6:51 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

yes, I did point out Sterns reaction to the article in my comment.

I agree with Drmom. People who don't want their daughters to go to Stern is no worse then a M.O person not wanting their child in beis yaakov.

amother

Burlywood

Tue, Oct 10 2017, 6:53 pm

DrMom wrote:

I love your way of thinking.

Maya

Tue, Oct 10 2017, 7:14 pm

Raisin wrote:

In the particular situation that prompted this spinoff, the OP specifically posted to ask what kind of liberal influences her daughter can expect at Columbia. The parents are extremely concerned about that, yet absolutely wouldn't consider a religious school. I think that's where the "twist" of ridiculousness lies here.

If you're concerned about any kind of negative influence and will therefore only consider appropriate schools, that's fine, even admirable. But this scenario, and attitude, is beyond my understanding.

amother

Pearl

Tue, Oct 10 2017, 7:18 pm

amother wrote:

Chap a doc?

TBH, I remember Stern being very cliquey around where you learned in sem, with those who didn't go being outsiders. That was a blemish on an otherwise great school.

Mommyg8

Tue, Oct 10 2017, 7:34 pm

Raisin wrote:

I just read the New York Times article, and this is not what they were saying at all. They had originally published this article as maybe fact/ maybe fiction, and the person who wrote it was not endorsing the lifestyle at all - if anything, the opposite. But the reaction was extremely negative that the newspaper is publishing this kind of article at all - even to explore this topic on any level - and the then-editor resigned. Not exactly an endorsement of an article.

amother

Periwinkle

Wed, Oct 11 2017, 12:11 am

amother wrote:

So, better to be surrounded by all kinds of perversion than to somehow "affiliate" yourself with MO? I'm not buying it.

Unlike yeshivish and chassidish institutions, where attendance means affiliation, YU doesn't have a hashkafic litmus test, nor does it demand conformity. (I leave aside the fact that if your parents believe in secular learning lechatchila, they probably would pass the litmus test anyway.)

Why the need for distance? What would happen if people knew you went to Stern? I'm curious to know what this affiliation entails.

amother

Burlywood

Wed, Oct 11 2017, 12:20 am

amother wrote:

I dont want to aggravate you. You ask what happens? In my world if someone goes to certain colleges, they can forget about being employed in the community.