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Motek
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 Thu, Oct 28 2004, 5:08 pm
On very many occasions I've heard or read people promote the idea of pursuing (kosher) pleasures. They generally refer to two sources, one in the Gemara and one anecdotal.
The source in the Gemara is in the Talmud Yerushalmi (Jerusalem Talmud) that one who refuses to try a (kosher) physical pleasure when offered will be held accountable.
The anecdotal source is the story of Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch who is quoted as saying, when asked why he went to the Alps: Because Hashem will ask me if I saw His beautiful Alps.
Before I go further, let me ask, what did you learn in school about this? For those who got a Chasidic education, is this in line with what you learned?
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gryp
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Sun, Oct 31 2004, 2:52 pm
there is a famous Chazal adopted as a Chabad pisgam that teaches us what is right: "Kadesh Atzmecha Bemutar Lach." "Make yourself holy with that which is permitted."
Here we are talking about physical pleasures which are completely allowed al pi halacha, even everyday simple things like eating, etc. Chassidus teaches us that we should "make ourselves holy" with these everyday permissable acts and not take pleasure in them.
an example I once learned about took place in the famous Yeshiva in France many many years ago. A mashpia for the bochrim there was commenting how when a person is about to eat a slice of bread and some butter, he smears the butter in the bread back and forth, this way and that way, very carefully until its just perfect for him to eat. why cant he just eat the bread and then the butter, its the same two foods hes eating?
The mashpia's point was, we all know we have to eat, so we have to be involved with gashmiyus, but lets not be too involved, lets not smear the butter this way, and then that way, and again,... it shows how "into" gashmiyus a person can be when really its all very silly. its still a slice of bread and some butter, it is only there for a minute before you eat it and then it wil be gone forever, and theyre both going to end up in your stomach. since you have to smear the butter on the bread because its not edible plain, at least dont try and perfect your smearing....
so in everyday pleasures we are supposed to "lessen" the pleasure and this is how we make ourselves holy.
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Motek
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Mon, Nov 01 2004, 5:51 pm
here's a link to a short article that sums it up:
http://www.chabad.org/parshah/.....83558
to sum up the article:
we seem to get mixed messages about pleasure
on the one hand, there is a biblical mitzva of "Kedoshim tihiyu" (you shall be holy) which the sages explain to mean "kadesh es atzmecha b'mutar lach" ("sanctify yourself by abstaining also from that which is permitted to you" (Yevamot 20a) Ramban (Nachmanides) even counts this as one of the 613 mitzvos.
on the other hand, a nazirite, who abstains from wine, is called a sinner for refraining from something permissible, as the Gemara puts it, "Is what the Torah forbids you not enough, that you take on additional prohibitions?"
and a nazirite is also called a holy man!
another pair of seeming contradictions is that in Pirkei Avos (Ethics of our Fathers) it says that the way of Torah is to eat just bread and salt and to sleep on the ground and to live a life of hardship
on the other hand, meat and spiced wine are said (in the Gemara) to help in one's Torah study, and there's the line from the Jerusalem Talmud mentioned in the first post!
so which is it?
should we limit our intake of even the permissible in order to be holy and live a proper Jewish life, or should we partake of the pleasures of this world?
the answer is that when we are "spiritually immature", we need to restrict our intake of even the permissible because we won't handle it properly, ensuring that it is used solely in the service of G-d.
At a later point in our spiritual development, we are able to safely handle more of the physical and use it properly.
even very great tzadikim and chasidim refrained from the permissible ...
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gryp
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Mon, Nov 01 2004, 7:04 pm
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I heard a story today in honor of upcoming chaf cheshvan (the yartzeit of the Rebbe Rashab.) When the Rebbe Rashab was eight years old, he was in a crowded room full of chasidim who were waiting for the Rebbe Maharash (his father who was Rebbe at the time of this story) to come. The Rashab started to push through the crowd to get some water because he was thirsty. He filled up a cup, drank half of it, and went back to his original place. A few minutes later he was thirsty again, so he pushed his way again through the crowd, filled a cup, drank half of it anf proceeded to go back to his place. The chasidim asked him, "if youre thirsty why dont you just drink the whole cup? that way you wont be thirsty again so quickly." The Rashab answered: "My father taught me that when I want something gashmiyus, I should only have some of it!"
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Ozmom
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Mon, Nov 01 2004, 8:33 pm
The concepts you are bringing up relate to Iskafia.
If you see a delicouse bowl of ice cream before you then it is a recomended middah in Chassidus to try and resist it. A wordly physical pleasure.
However you would do that for yourself but not deny your kids right?
also issues that affect other ppl wouldn't fall under this catagory.
Issues pertaining to relationships, etc, see my last post in the pious thread I talk about this.
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gryp
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Mon, Nov 01 2004, 9:56 pm
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I understand the discussion to be about pursuing kosher/halachically allowed pleasures. this is not about if there is a problem, ie.a girl drowning and a bochur saving her, or a couple having intimacy problems. this is about when people try and fit their lifestyle exactly into the halachic guidelines, instead of accepting the frum lifestyle upon themselves. and even more so, to teach people that just because its allowed (like a simple thing like a cup of water), it is still better to restrain yourself. this is the true meaning of "b'chol derachecha da'ah" "in all your ways you should know Him (Hashem)." "in all your ways" = simple pleasures completely allowed by halacha, "you should know Him" = you should use them to serve Hashem by holding back from them.
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ForeverYoung
Guest
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Mon, Nov 01 2004, 10:48 pm
| Quote: | Motek: the answer is that when we are "spiritually immature", we need to restrict our intake of even the permissible because we won't handle it properly, ensuring that it is used solely in the service of G-d.
At a later point in our spiritual development, we are able to safely handle more of the physical and use it properly.
Even very great tzadikim and chasidim refrained from the permissible ... |
I'd say it's opposite. We know that the altimate pleasure of Olam HaBa is enjoying H's Shechina. This can be 'tasted' in this world via learning. However, one has to be on a tremendeous level to appreciate this. So the greater a person becomes, the less he needs the worldy pleasures and it is easier for him/ her to refrain from them. Or, at least, s/he understands that they're vain.
An average person, on the other hand, needs them more and has harder time refraining. I'd say one has to take it gradually, according to his growth. OverRestrain, & you will snap; overIndulge, and you will drown. It is an idividual decision for all of us.
Now, there are pleasures that are encouraged by the Torah: kids (when they behave LOL  ), simchos, Shabbos & YomTov seudos.
However, there are 2 major problems in our days: 1. too much of cheap (value, not cost), flashy pleasures available 2. people do not know how to have 'good time' w/out them.
Field trip or hike used to be fun. Now it's breath taking roller costers.
(you get the point). Baking together used to be fun. Now it's let's go to the mall. Etc. Reading a book undisturbed used to be pleasure. Now it's computer games. I'm not saying that all 'new' fun is bad - I enjoy some of it too (in small doses). But people lost the ability to occupy themselves w/out external aids when they have free time.
This is not only a Jewish problem - but as spiritual people we feel it more.
Last edited by ForeverYoung on Tue, Nov 02 2004, 11:39 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Ozmom
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Tue, Nov 02 2004, 6:22 am
| Quote: | The Fifth Year
By Yanki Tauber
A popular Israeli joke claims that there are three ways to do anything: the right way, the wrong way, and the Jewish way.
In fact, a careful reading of the Torah shows that it sees everything in the world as belonging to one of three primary domains: the good, the bad, and a third realm that's more difficult to define. In Halachah (Torah law) it's called "the optional" (reshut); in Kabbalah and Chassidism it's refered to as "the translucent husk" (kelipat nogah) or simply, "the undefined". Basically, in this third category a thing is not what it is, but what you make of it. It can be elevated to the realm of holy, or dragged down into the realm of the profane -- depending on what you do with it, what you use it for, even what you're thinking while you're involved with it.
For example: a common human activity is eating. Eating matzah on Passover or making kiddush on a cup of wine on Shabbat is a mitzvah, a G-dly deed. For a Jew to eat pork or a dish containing both meat and milk is an aveirah, a transgression of the divine will. And then there is a third, "neutral" domain: your ordinary lunch on an ordinary Tuesday. Or take another common human activity -- the financial transaction: giving charity is a mitzvah, stealing is a sin, and then there's all the mundane buying, selling, borrowing and begging that goes on in between. Or take speech: words spoken in Torah study and prayer are holy, gossiping or lying is forbidden, and then there's all the other talking we do that's neither here nor there.
According to the Chassidic masters, however, this "neither here nor there" is the most important component of our mission in life.
In both the realm of the holy and the realm of the profane, we have no input into the nature of the deed. The only thing we decide is what we will do. Will we do the mitzvah, or will we allow the opportunity to bring G-dliness into the world pass us by? Will we create a void in our souls by transgressing the divine will, or will we strengthen our character and give pleasure to the Almighty by resisting the temptation? The mitzvah is a mitzvah regardless of whether we do it or not, and the transgression is a negative deed whether or not we succumb to it. Our actions have a profound effect on our own inner being and on the state of creation, but do not define the nature of the deed. The rules exist independently of ourselves -- the only real choice we have is to conform to them or rebel against them.
But G-d did not create the human being just to play a part in a pre-established cosmic plan. He has enough passive players in his universe -- atoms, trees, cows, planets and angels. G-d created man because He desired what the Talmud calls "a partner in creation" -- someone who would write the rules and chart the plan together with Him.
This, says the Lubavitcher Rebbe, explains a curious thing about the laws of the fruit tree outlined in the 19th chapter of Leviticus. There G-d commands Moses that the fruit of the first three years of a newly-planted tree is forbidden for consumption; that the fruit of the fourth year should be brought to the holy city of Jerusalem and eaten there under conditions of ritual purity; and that beginning with the fifth year, the fruit is ours to do with as we please: pack those apples on a picnic, sell them in the marketplace, open an applesauce factory -- it's up to you.
The strange thing here is the order. One would think that the proper sequence would be from the bottom up -- forbidden, optional, holy. Instead, we go from one extreme to the other and then end up in the middle.
In truth, however, the fifth year is the loftiest of all. Here, in the domain of the optional, is where the most meaningful aspect of life is acted out. Here we not only determine what we will do, but also what the significance of our deed will be. The raw clay of creation is placed before us, while the Creator stands by and waits to see what we will make of it
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Ozmom
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Tue, Nov 02 2004, 6:43 am
In short for those who can't be bothered reading the whole thing (I know I wouldn't)
Things that are of a neutral source, its up to you whether you use it for good nd elevate it or squander it or use it for bad.
Now in reference to "Kedoshim teheyou"
Rashi says abstain from arayos (forbidden relations) and from Aveira.
thats the Peshat
see Rashi in the beginning of Parshas Kedoshim.
The statement of Chazal "Kadesh atzmecho bemutar lach" the Gemorah says refers to Isurei derabanan- laws the the Torah allowed but the Rabbis neverthe less prohibited and Chassidus extends this to mean that one should try to sanctify themselve even from things that are totally permitted. but the focus being on "atzmecho" oneself, not to tell someone else "don't eat that chocolate cake" but to choose for oneself to have Iskafia and resist it.
According to a famous Chassidic Mashpia who would reprimand those students who would eat less because of this telling Kadesh atzmecho with what comes out of your mouth ie: your speach rather than with what goes in ie: what you eat.
in other words Halevei people should be as carefull with Bein adam Lachavero- deeds pertaining to dealings with your fellow man
Last edited by Ozmom on Mon, Jan 16 2006, 10:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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Motek
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Tue, Nov 02 2004, 10:09 am
from a sicha edited by the Lubavitcher Rebbe, in Likutei Sichos, vol. 1, parshas Acharei
“And you shall guard the guarding of my word” (Vayikra 18:30) – the Gemara (Yevamos 21a) says, “provide a guard for the guarding of my word”. This is the source for the precautionary measures instituted by the Sages, those things which we are to refrain from that are legally permissible, as well as the “fences” which each individual is obligated to make even in permissible things. As it says in sifrei musar (books of moral instruction), that we must be careful in 100 “gates of the permissible” in order not to violate anything that is prohibited.
Some erroneously argue: Why look for new chumros (stringencies)? If the rabbis, of any generation, forbade it, that’s one thing, we have to listen, but nonetheless, even here, we don’t have to be overly cautious because these are merely rabbinic decrees. To look for new stringencies however, is altogether unnecessary. “Enough for you what has been forbidden to you by the Torah!” (Yerushalmi, Nedarim 9:1 also Rambam hilchos deios, 3:1).
They strengthen their argument by referring to a Yerushalmi where it says that man will be held accountable for all that he saw and did not consume (Yerushami Kidushin 4: end of 12).
Moreover, they say, it is already hard enough to observe all that we must keep. To add further stringencies or hidurim (extras), therefore, is not worthwhile, for these may lead to neglecting essential requirements. Too many restrictions may lead to a total diversion from the way of the Torah, ch’v.
They support their argument by referring to the sin of the Eitz Ha’Daas, the source of all sins, that it came about because Adam added “and do not touch it,” to “do not eat from it.”
Their claim is greatly in error, for the following reasons:
All obligations of the Torah were given by the one and same Shepherd. Because we are told “not to turn aside from what [the rabbis] tell us,” even the enactments of the rabbis assume full force and strictness as laws of the Torah itself. On the practical level, we do make a distinction between d’oraisas and d’rabbanans, because the Torah says that when in doubt with a d’oraisa we are strict, and when in doubt about a d’rabbanan, we are lenient.
That everybody must set restrictions for himself in permissible matters is a Torah mitzva, “and you shall guard the guarding of My [word].” And the Torah says, “Kedoshim tihiyu” – ‘kadesh es atzmecha b’mutar lach” (Yevamos 20a). This is not only a mitzva by itself, but it is also part of the “you shall guard the guarding”
As far as the Yerushalmi and the Eitz Ha’daas – they have nothing to do with this, for when Adam was in Gan Eden, he was a merkava (chariot) to Elokus (G-dliness), and had no association with evil. A chariot does not act on its own, and in a state like that, there is no need for fences or precautions. Precautionary measures, under such circumstances, are not only unnecessary but they are wrong, bec. when one is a merkava to Elokus, all you are and do reflect kedusha, and when he does something, he elevates it. For him, therefore, refraining from anything, would be withholding its elevation.
Under other conditions though, where there is a need for fences, these are a virtue.
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Motek
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Tue, Nov 02 2004, 10:15 am
To sum up the Lubavitcher Rebbe's position:
an individual is obligated to restrict himself even in permissible things
this is a Torah obligation, not an extra "Chasidic extension" of the mitzva
the Rebbe negates all reasons set forth by those who oppose adding new stringencies
the Rebbe explains how their Torah-based reasons are not applicable
the Rebbe explains how Torah sources that support partaking of the pleasurable and not adding restrictions, apply to those on an extremely high level
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Yael
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Tue, Nov 02 2004, 2:44 pm
I have only one thing to say, that someone once said to me,
how can a person focus on extras, and chumras when he is lacking in the performance of basic mitzvas?
take davening on time, or tznius, or lashon hara. these are basics written in shulchan aruch, wouldnt you think that you should work on the basics before reaching the level of hiskafia and other lofty things like refraining from pleasure?
dont you think it is interesting that the non-lubavitch world is better at these things, (davening on time, or tznius, or lashon hara.) in general, than lubavitch? is it b/c lubav. focuses on the lofty things first?
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gryp
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Tue, Nov 02 2004, 2:54 pm
| Yael wrote: | | dont you think it is interesting that the non-lubavitch world is better at these things, (davening on time, or tznius, or lashon hara.) in general, than lubavitch? |
I dont think it is fair to compare Lubavitch and Not-Lubavitch. Most of the time when this is done, it compares the worst of Lubavitch with the best of the not-Lubavitch. If there is one person from each side that somehow we know they are on the same level, then it might be fair to compare them and see who does what.
Also I dont think there is a point to compare. Both sides have different stresses within Yiddishkeit. Whichever way you think is the better side, will be the derech that you agree with.
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Tefila
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Tue, Nov 02 2004, 4:08 pm
Yael yep we can also learn from other chassidim however each person should be proud with the group they belong to as long as it is Torah and be willing to share with each other!
Then we would achieve what is first and foremost Ahavas Yisroel b/c without that we have achieved zero
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proudmom
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Tue, Nov 02 2004, 4:42 pm
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That is true Freilich I agree with you
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amother
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Tue, Nov 02 2004, 7:58 pm
Its ozmom can't be bothered changing name
Yael I agree with RG, you can't compare them.
I understand your point though that we musn't forget what comes first, especailly our middos, and there is a difference between stopping yourself from things that are permissable but lead to non permissable or things that will never lead to non permissable but can be used to serve hashem.
and things in life that ensure you are capable of doing your shlichus without distration, for example if you need to make sure you have a proper full meal so you have the strength to serve hashem then by all means do so. There is no point depriving yourself and then not having the strength to fullfill your shlichus in this world.
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gryp
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Tue, Nov 02 2004, 8:34 pm
| amother wrote: | | and things in life that ensure you are capable of doing your shlichus without distration, for example if you need to make sure you have a proper full meal so you have the strength to serve hashem then by all means do so. There is no point depriving yourself and then not having the strength to fullfill your shlichus in this world. |
in fact, when you eat a meal for strength to do what you need to do, it actually is serving Hashem, and elevates the food out of klipas nogah.
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ForeverYoung
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Tue, Nov 02 2004, 11:43 pm
a very litvish voice here to agree with hasidim ( ):
it is a mizva to take care of your body.
W/out a healthy body one cannot serve H' properly.
You're correct, girls, we've got to remember basics 1st!!
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Motek
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Wed, Nov 03 2004, 11:07 am
| Quote: | | take davening on time, or tznius, or lashon hara. these are basics written in shulchan aruch, wouldnt you think that you should work on the basics before reaching the level of hiskafia and other lofty things like refraining from pleasure? |
if a person is lax in davening or tznius or in what he says, does that mean she should indulge in the permissible because she's lax in the basics? Definitely not! In fact, if a person refrains from even the permissible, it makes them more able to appreciate that which is G-dly, and more likely to improve in all areas of service of G-d.
From the Rebbe Rashab’s (5th Lubavitcher Rebbe) maamar (Chasidic discourse) Shuva Yisrael:
"… even if he didn’t do any isur, chas v’shalom, but an excess of permissible taavos, for by doing so he becomes very thickened and coarsened until he dulls his mind and heart (timtum ha’moach v’halev), and is not a vessel for the revelation of G-dliness in his soul (l’gilui Elokus b’nafsho)."
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amother
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Wed, Nov 03 2004, 12:07 pm
Motek, I know from your other posts that you hate assumptions, so please, help me understand you beter:
we have a person, who knows the basic halacha, does not work on observing it, but is perfecting himself in abstaning form pleasures. How is it different from monks? (I lnow I'm taking an extreme angle here, but this issue bothers me)
The original hasidim are very different from what we see today. What was happening is that people were very poor due to Tzar's restrictions of where they can live & how they can earn money. Well, "ein kemah, ein Tora" - people did not have time for anything in their lives besides trying to obtain $ or food. People were poor, depressed, sick, obused, opressed and killed (pogroms). They were getting stuck in a rut. In this situation Judaism was getting lost in the face of physical struggle for life. The hasidus was 'made' for these people - they were reminded aobut H', who loves them, taught to serve Him 'besimha'. They did not learn and b/c they had no time o do it. The wold never sit in a heder, b/c that would mean that the family will starve. So mashals, stories, feeling and emotion were brough into the picture. The Jewish neshamos responded to it. The Rebbes had to keep the flame going. All these people had pure neshamos, probably purer than ours!
Selected individuals were able to go to Yeshiva and learn, some were able to reach unbelievable heights in their learning, but the general population was mostly ignorant (halacha-wise, not Jewish-Neshama-wise) and went to their Rebbe for support in all matters.
So if we take a poor, unlearnet, daily strugglling for life person, we cannot expect them to comply with all halachos, a lot of which he didn't know anyway. So the Rebbes, wise people they were, helped them improve in other areas.
Now, when ALL boys and girls have the ability to be Jewishly educated, why can't they work on those ares? I'm not saying be perfect, I'm saying try!! What is the goal in concentrating on what Ozmom said:
| Quote: | | things that will never lead to non permissable but can be used to serve hashem | ?
Not abandon them, no. But why devote yourself to them more than to trying to become better in observances that the Torah told us to keep?
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