Dd22 road tripping across country and looks pritzus

avrahamama

Wed, Aug 12 2020, 8:13 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

On the other hand, there have been threads here about Chassidish husbands who want their wives to dress more zexy outside of the house. Shorter skirts, high heels, longer sheitels, full face makeup.

I'm not saying it's right, not at all. I'm just saying that it's not unheard of. Some men really base their self esteem and social standing on having wives who are eye candy.

She needs to be careful of men like that, because if she ever decides to dress more tznius for herself, her DH is not going to be very happy about it.

So I think that's why these girls are looking for boys who aren't ok with their dress ... It's funny/sad. But they know that a chasidish guy who would be ok with their tznius standards isn't the kind of guy they want in the long run.

Odelyah

Wed, Aug 12 2020, 8:13 am

banana123 wrote:

I think it's noteworthy that your DD is sending you uncensored photos, even though she knows you don't approve of her tznius. That says a lot about your relationship with her, that she feels like she can be so open with you.

You're doing something right. Keep it up.

I think this too. It sounds like you do have a good relationship BH. Maybe she needs time to figure herself out and grow up a little more before she gets married? Would she consider going to learn somewhere, like Neve Yerushalayim perhaps, for a couple months? You said she's not working now so maybe she would appreciate that gift.

Also just to clarify re the leggings-- I assume you mean without a skirt? But maybe you do mean under a skirt but no socks?

FranticFrummie

Wed, Aug 12 2020, 8:47 am

Odelyah wrote:

That's a great idea!

I normally would not recommend a Chassidish girl to go to Neve, but in this case it sounds like it makes a lot of sense. They go on lots of trips, and she'll meet girls from all across the spectrum. She'll get guidance from teachers who understand her point of view, and IYH she'll meet a nice guy maybe.

PinkFridge

Wed, Aug 12 2020, 8:57 am

I hate to say this. And I'm going to ask that no one quote this post or say, yeah, like this group, or that group.
But it's a thing to relax standards on vacation, even among very frum communities. Not a majority of people, maybe outliers, but it's done. Is it possible she thinks that what goes on on vacation stays there, and she can compartmentalize?

Either way, OP, kudos to you for giving your daughter breathing room and not going heavy with molds and expectations. Hatzlacha!

amother

Hotpink

Wed, Aug 12 2020, 9:34 am

I think it may just be that she's not ready to get married, and these are barriers which she is subconsciously placing. If she dresses a certain way, which is her prerogative at 22, and is only looking at guys who want someone who dresses a different way, and she does not want to do something about it-either change how she dresses, or change who she thinks she is looking for, she might be subconsciously holding up the process. I would consider a dating coach, to either make her aware that she is having unrealistic expectations, or that she needs to change the way she presents herself. I know you have said this, but unfortunately, sometimes children listen to an outsider better than to their own mother, even when they have a great relationship.
That being said, the truth of the matter is, everyone only has one bashert, and finding him is like finding a needle in a haystack. Sometimes it's right there and it's obvious, and sometimes it takes a lot of searching. I don't know if changing who she is and what she's looking for will make it easier to find the one guy who is destined for her. It will definitely make it easier to have lots of dates, but the right one, it's still the right one.

Success10

Wed, Aug 12 2020, 9:43 am

amother [ Slategray ] wrote:

She doesnt need therapy because she struggles with tznious.
Give me a break.

It's not about the tznius. She seems to be seeking attention, in an unhealthy way. She also needs clear direction what kind of life she wants and what kind of home she wants to build. Until then, she probably shouldn't date.

FranticFrummie

Wed, Aug 12 2020, 9:43 am

amother [ Hotpink ] wrote:

WOW! Incredibly insightful post! Very wise, every word.

I wish you had posted under your SN. I'm really impressed. Applause

Regarding the bolded, she may want to hold onto her teenage years for a little bit longer, but is not aware that she's doing it. Fear of growing up is a real thing. Some kids grow up too fast, and some are terrified to leave the nest. (Sometimes just emotionally. Obviously she's out of the house, but is her mindset?)

amother

Salmon

Wed, Aug 12 2020, 9:48 am

amother [ Hotpink ] wrote:

I also think this is a possibility. I also wonder if some, especially some women, just want to short circuit or self-sabotage the entire shidduchim circus because of fear of failure/emotional torture/rejection, etc. because somehow, dating now requires "a coach". (It's not a bad suggestion above because the reality is the reality, but it is kind of weird that something like this requires resumes, professional photos, and a coach these days when I personally think about it.)

amother

Puce

Wed, Aug 12 2020, 9:52 am

My friend's sister is like this. She doesn't trust that the more "modern" young men would be faithful, committed, and respect her for more than her looks, but the frummer ones wouldn't think of dating her. The fact that she has male friends does show that she has an understanding into the mindset of the more rebellious guys. According to my friend's sister, they are fun, but stay away if you want a meaningful relationship...

She should not be dating men who are more religious than where she is at. That's a recipe for disaster. My advice would be to try to figure out exactly why your daughter is interested in frummer guys even though she obviously is not on that level. If it's because she wants a committed relationship, then it's possible, though difficult , to find a guy who is at her level with the same values. If she's just confused, then I'd suggest therapy.

FranticFrummie

Wed, Aug 12 2020, 10:01 am

amother [ Puce ] wrote:

If it's because she wants a committed relationship, then it's possible, though difficult , to find a guy who is at her level with the same values.

Please don't imply that some guys are at a "lower level". Just because someone's avodas Hashem is a slightly different derech, does not mean that they are not great marriage material, or that they are less frum.

There are plenty of chill MO or Yeshivish guys out there who have sterling morals and middos, and are looking for a faithful life partner and a Torah centered family.

Just because someone doesn't wear a shtreimel, doesn't mean they are going to cheat. As a matter of fact, levush doesn't do anything to ensure commitment.

amother

Violet

Wed, Aug 12 2020, 10:05 am

Give your daughter lots of praise and lots of support. Encourage her and continue your great relationship with her. This way if she needs anything she will ask. Accept her no matter how she dresses.
She has to make her own path and you have to give her the space to do that which I think you are. Good luck to her and to you.

amother

Hotpink

Wed, Aug 12 2020, 10:15 am

Let me share a personal story. I grew up wearing jeans, decades ago, and it is perfectly acceptable in my community at that time, but the community was starting to move to the right. The frummies wore skirts, especially after a year in Sem. but typically stopped a year or 2 later and those who didn't go to Israel for the year (about 1/2 of us ) wore pants. I was in college and I wore jeans. Not leggings, not tight pants or short shorts, but slacks. I was a Frum girl. I davened, learned Torah, made time for and a priority of doing chessed, was strict about Shabbos and kashrut, and I was a good girl-no drinking/drugs & shomer negiah (but I would absolutely shake hands at an interview). I met my friend's friend, who was just back from Shana Bet, who asked her if she could set us up. I agreed. I wore a long skirt and sweater. On our date, he took my hand and said "do you mind". I took it back and said "yes I do" to which he replied "but you wear pants."
It took me a few more months to see that the guys I was interested in and the guys who were interested in me-superficially, were not the same. I fought it in principle for a semester and then just stopped wearing pants.
I still don't think certain pants are inappropriate-let's not debate that here, but if we live in the superficial society that judges and categorizes people by what they wear, I will dress as I want to be perceived. Anyone who speaks to me for 2 minutes can know what I think, believe and can judge me on that, but I don't want to be judged a certain way before I open my mouth and you are in the door.

FranticFrummie

Wed, Aug 12 2020, 10:16 am

Here's what I did with DD and her friends - if the skirt is too short, but the blouse is appropriate, I would praise them on how pretty the blouse was. If the blouse is too low cut or too many buttons open, I would admire her new shoes. If I couldn't find anything acceptable, I would compliment her earrings. There is always something nice you can say, you just have to look for it.

Kids love to hear good things about themselves, and eventually they will naturally want to gravitate to the things that bring praise. You don't ever have to say anything negative, just ignore what you don't like.

Maybe it's a subtle form of brainwashing. I don't know, but I've found that it works, and it doesn't push kids away.

amother

Salmon

Wed, Aug 12 2020, 10:21 am

amother [ Hotpink ] wrote:

I still don't think certain pants are inappropriate-let's not debate that here, but if we live in the superficial society that judges and categorizes people by what they wear, I will dress as I want to be perceived. Anyone who speaks to me for 2 minutes can know what I think, believe and can judge me on that, but I don't want to be judged a certain way before I open my mouth and you are in the door.

You're not wrong. It is a reality that we will perceive and be perceived based on appearances and dress.

I wonder if the focus on it with young people, especially young women, has the unintended consequence of putting so much focus on appearance that it sound like the message is: I AM my appearance, my appearance is where my value is, etc. in this system...and maybe they don't like that message and are rebelling against it. I would resent it if I felt like the only reason someone wants to talk to me or will even talk to me is because of how I look.

Again, I know perceptions are real, but there is a flip side to the emphasis in the "system".

watergirl

Wed, Aug 12 2020, 10:22 am

OP, where is the pritzus? Her bra strap is showing. Is she wearing a skirt over the leggings? I do not think its a great idea to lump these quite minor things with the term pritzus, which indicates something much more than a strap.

Why is she meeting with a chassidish guy for a date if she is not in that place at this time? She should not be going to play a part if thats not who she is. If it were the other way around, we would see a post here in a year from a newly married woman saying information was withheld from her and she was sold a story when they were dating. No double standards, please.

Raw

Wed, Aug 12 2020, 10:24 am

banana123 wrote:

This this this!

tante_feige

Wed, Aug 12 2020, 10:34 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

I live OOT. My ex is one of the few men who "wore the levush" (Yeshivish). He was abusive, and Orthoprax. The MO husbands are very kind to their wives, daven with the tzibbur, learn, are careful about LH, etc.

Levush is a mask, hiding who you really are... don't assume that the two always align.

Last edited by tante_feige on Wed, Aug 12 2020, 1:50 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Salmon

Wed, Aug 12 2020, 10:39 am

tante_feige wrote:

I live OOT. My ex is one of the few men who "wore the levush" (Yeshivish). He was abusive, and Orthoprax. The MO husbands' are very kind to their wives, daven whitty the tzibbur, learn, are careful about LH, etc.

Levush is a mask, hiding who you really are... don't assume that the two always align.

I was married to 2 men who also looked (and look) perfect and like little tzaddikim. Clearly I was the problem.

I had orders of protection and police reports and CPS reports, and I was never allowed to talk about it and even actively or tacitly pressured to not get help from "the velt"...after the Torah was used to justify or deny the abuse.

There are many who walk the talk, and some who don't. It's never so simple to judge the outer trappings and the costs are high either way. It's a very hard time.