Question abt das torah

amother

Mon, Apr 19 2021, 3:18 pm

I want to know- why is something not allowed but than if you find a rav to give a heter then suddenly its okay.
Here is an example to show what I mean. You cant eat meat on mikvah day but if you have a seudah then its okay. Does the meat suddenly not get stuck in your teeth? If brushing and flossing after a siyum is good enough then why cant it ALWAYS be good enough.

I'm practically frustrated because with something I'm going thru now halachic questions always come up and I'm told "call this specific rav, he will give a heter" (vs calling our rabbanim who wouldn't) so if I'm shopping around for a rav who will tell me what I want to hear why even call a rav!?
It doesnt sit well with me. If das torah is so important than every rav should answer the same, but we all know that an answer will vary depending on who you are and where you are from. (I'm not talking things like kashrus etc here)

Also, if a question is not halachic but hashkafic- or just plain random-what is the rav answering based off of?

PinkFridge

Mon, Apr 19 2021, 3:27 pm

This is why aseh lecha rav is useful. No, not every rav can answer every question. But a rav who can answer most? That's good. I know people in aveilus who've got different psakim for how much they can participate in their children's chasunas. I was surprised at one psak but knowing the posek, and the relationship my friend and her family has with him, I see how they could be mekabel the limitations.

So I guess my point is (I've really got to finish supper) is that when one has an ongoing relationship, these kinds of psakim don't seem jarring or inconsistent.

miami85

Mon, Apr 19 2021, 3:30 pm

Not so much as they "can permit it" but they tend to more about the back-and-forth discussion in the gemara as gemara is not "halacha l'maaseh" its a discussion and discourse and know which things can have lee-way. They know which parts are d'oraisa and d'rabbanan and the particulars of the cases and how the details can affect the outcome which is why it is important to ask your own shaila becasue YOUR details are important. The more experience a rav has the more "shades of gray" there are. In my own field I know that that the more I know the more gray I see in various cases.

amother

Burlywood

Mon, Apr 19 2021, 3:32 pm

This is a very shaky topic, and it can get super heated. Just a heads up Smile

Honestly, same. I don’t understand it either, and no one has bothered to give me a straight answer. At this point, I’ve reduced the whole rav thing to just asking questions that are clearly and exclusively Halacha. Like a question about fasting on tisha b’av, and I’m nursing, and it’s 112 degrees outside. If it’s hashkafa or just plain random, and not Halacha, I just do what I’m comfortable with.
A lot of people don’t agree with me, but that’s ok.

amother

Goldenrod

Mon, Apr 19 2021, 3:39 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

People get around difficult things all the time. Hence the constant siyums during the three weeks. We all listen to music during sefirah (and even just in general, some say we should never listen to music), even though numerous, numerous sources say that since the churban we aren't supposed to. I'm not sure we're always supposed to, but Rabbis assume that we are a soft and weak generation, and often rule accordingly. That's why our psaks are often more maykil than others. There's that famous story about two chickens with questionable shechitah, and the rich family is told to buy a new one, while the poor family is told it's fine.

For me, when I was going through infertility, I needed someone who was an expert in paskening bedikah cloths, etc. I could no longer rely on the local rav, even though he was a capable talmud chacham. Similarly, when my grandmother was dealing with complicated end-of life issues, it's no longer a question for the regular Rav, it calls for someone with a bit more experience.

I've called extremely well-known and respected Rabbaim that are the dayan of their community, and I have been told to call someone ELSE with more knowledge than them on the complexities of halacha sometimes with regard to life and death, illness and medication. It's not always shopping around, although I don't doubt that happens. It's called moving up the chain to someone more experienced. Not more lax.

I have advanced degrees in the science field. When it comes to Covid, however, no one should be listening to me and all my opinions. Just because I studied viruses and even coronaviruses doesn't mean that I have all the answers. I would defer to someone who is an infectious disease specialist who can draw from more experience. Etc.

amother

Yellow

Mon, Apr 19 2021, 3:40 pm

Firstly the phrase "daas torah" is not what you think it is.

Daas torah refers to the viewpoint ("daas") of a talmid chacham/Rav/gadol. So if you have a question, you don't know if something is right or wrong on an ethical/moral level- you ask daas Torah. You also ask daas Torah if you need advice. The idea is that a ben Torah aquires a view of the world through the lense of the Torah he has learned. He looks at things from a Torah perspective. The Torah is "the brain of Hashem", so the more immersed in Torah the person is, the more you feel you are getting at the emes.

Getting a psak in halacha is very different. That's not the same as daas torah. That's halacha. In halacha, there are often different ways to pasken.

It's wrong to go to a certain Rav to get a heter and shop around for heterim. Stick to one rav and follow him.

However, there are some poskim who are bigger experts in certain areas of halacha.
Let's say you have a particularly difficult issue in nidda. You need a special heter to do something. Your regular rav might say he cannot be matir it but if you go to a certain Rav who is an expert in this area, with bigger shoulders, so to speak, he will be able to be matir it.

amother

Turquoise

Mon, Apr 19 2021, 3:50 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I don't think it's "you can't eat meat". It's a recommendation so you won't come to shailahs, but not a blanket statement.

And I'm told- who's telling you? Imamothers? They are definitely not daas torah

amother

Yellow

Mon, Apr 19 2021, 3:54 pm

Rabbi Krohn always says that Rav Moshe used to lament, "if only people would ask me which yeshiva to send their son to, not just questions of basar b'chalav. "

Meaning, the questions of basar and chalav are straight up halacha. Muttar or assur.
But asking which yeshiva to send your child to, that's daas Torah. Rav Moshe's mind was kulo Torah- he could examine the question through the prism of Torah.

Instead people would ask him questions that are simple and not very life altering, while not bothering to consult with daas Torah on matters of major importance.

amother

Yellow

Mon, Apr 19 2021, 3:59 pm

amother [ Turquoise ] wrote:

Not eating meat on the day of the mikva is brought down in halacha. Exceptions are made in certain circumstances (like yomtov), in which case the woman should take extra care in cleaning her teeth. Poskim dispute if this includes chicken and ground meat, which won't get stuck in your teeth. Also they dispute whether it includes anything fleishig, such as chicken soup, even though the issue of meat getting stuck between one's teeth is certainly not an issue in that case.

Also, you are asking, if brushing and flossing is good enough, why is it not always good enough. Halacha attempts to guide the woman so she can avoid problems. So they say not to knead challa or eat meat. Yes you can theoretically do those things and spend extra time cleaning your hands and teeth well. But why look for trouble? If you know you are going to the mikva at night, you might put on less makeup that day. Just smart.

Many women would not necessarily think of not baking challa or eating meat if it wasn't spelled out for them as activities to avoid.

amother

Cerise

Mon, Apr 19 2021, 4:03 pm

Ok a couple of different things here:

Asking a Rav for advice - this is a good thing. It's basically asking someone wiser, who views life through a Torah lens.

Asking a Rav for halachic clarity - also fine. There are halachos that the average person isn't familiar with, and a Rav or dayan can answer for you.

Asking a Rav for a heter - here is where I get frustrated. Either it's ok or its not. Either it is assur or its muttar. How can a stain on a bedikah be ok for one woman but not ok for another. How can one nursing mother be told she has to fast but another that she must break her fast. I feel that this is indicative of a bigger problem, which is that throughout the ages, more and more things have become "assur" and now require special permission to undo. And it just kind of feels like half of Judaism has become "don't touch the tree" when really it should only be "don't eat from the tree", and by placing all of these extras which now require a heter to circumvent, you have a whole lot more people feeling burnt out by the entire system and ready to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

amother

Yellow

Mon, Apr 19 2021, 4:06 pm

amother [ Cerise ] wrote:

I don't have time to answer properly now but your understanding on the halachic process is flawed.

(I feel like not too long ago, we had this exact same discussion on imamother. )

I'll try to come back to this later bn.

amother

Goldenrod

Mon, Apr 19 2021, 4:39 pm

amother [ Cerise ] wrote:

Asking a Rav for a heter - here is where I get frustrated. Either it's ok or its not. Either it is assur or its muttar. How can a stain on a bedikah be ok for one woman but not ok for another. How can one nursing mother be told she has to fast but another that she must break her fast. I feel that this is indicative of a bigger problem, which is that throughout the ages, more and more things have become "assur" and now require special permission to undo. And it just kind of feels like half of Judaism has become "don't touch the tree" when really it should only be "don't eat from the tree", and by placing all of these extras which now require a heter to circumvent, you have a whole lot more people feeling burnt out by the entire system and ready to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

The Chachamim instituted safeguards not for nothing. Without those safeguards, there was violation of the Torah itself. They even discuss it in gemara Shabbos, about how not to move the candlestick on the chance that you will come to extinguish/light the candle. (I forget exactly, oy) And one talmud disagreed, and then lamented that it actually happened to him when he attempted it.

Let's say you're a resident. You've been through four years of med school and two years of training. One day, someone comes to you with a rash and says, "What is this?" And you're like, "duh, it's cellulitis." And yet your attending comes over to take a look and says, "hmm. There's something about this I don't like." But it's literally textbook cellulitis. But something is ringing alarm bells. He calls over the head of dermatology, and he takes a look and says, "could be cellulitis, but you're right. Something about this rash seems different. Let's take a closer look with a biopsy."

And whoosh. It's cancer.

Sometimes one brown stain is cellulitis. And sometimes for someone else it's cancer. (I fudged the details a bit, but this is a true story). That's why you need the experts.

What else do you think is considered assur that's so difficult to undo?

amother

Mon, Apr 19 2021, 4:41 pm

Lots to read and process , thank you

Abt the eating meat- I was told its halacha.

I understand that a rav will BH be honest if he feels a question needs a rav with more expertise, so it needs to go up a chain, till you reach a rav who will say okay you can do it.
It makes me so frustrated because for example if you want a heter for a semen analysis or iui you will eventually get a heter but only after going up and up the chain and saying your story again and again till a rav is sympathetic enough. That's how it seems to me. And of course he will say "just make a little hole in the condom", is the hole really doing anything? Why even bother? Just let a couple do what they need to do.
I'm sure there are hundreds of other examples. This is just the first that comes to mind right now.

amother

Turquoise

Mon, Apr 19 2021, 4:43 pm

I can't give examples from niddah, but I can give from kashrus. (Dh has semicha in it)

There are MANY shittos on many topics in halacha. Not just one.

Therefore, a heter comes in when the rav, instead of ruling based on the general consensus or psak, is ruling based on a different rishon etc. who paskens differently.

Some things are always clear cut. The pot is now treif.
But sometimes, if the family can't afford another pot and there are others to rely on, a rav can give a different psak ( "heter"?) Based on that specific situation.

amother

Tangerine

Mon, Apr 19 2021, 4:48 pm

I asked my Rav about this and he explained. When a Rav holds a certain way, he can't give you a Psak that relies on a heter that he doesn't hold by. However, since it is a valid Halachic opinion, in a complicated situation he'll send someone to a Rav that he knows holds the way they need in that situation because in a complicated situation, that's what needs to be done. However, in a situation where not only does he not hold by that heter but he doesn't hold it as a valid Halachic opinion for whatever reason then he can't send you to a Rav who will pasken that way.

amother

Cerise

Mon, Apr 19 2021, 5:05 pm

My issue isn't about how they get to the heter. I understand that it's a process, relying on different opinions, etc.
My question is WHY isn't it black and white. Torah is an instruction manual. Either this switch turns the machine on or off. WHY can you have one set of instructions for one person and a whole different set for other people. And why, if one derech/chumrah doesn't resonate with me, do I need a heter? Why can't I just rely on my own learning to change? (E.g. there are opinions that the complete hair doesn't have to be covered. Why can't I adopt that minhag, if it's a legitimate opinion? Why can't we all, if we chose to? Why would it be wrong for one but right for another?)

amother

Tangerine

Mon, Apr 19 2021, 5:12 pm

amother [ Cerise ] wrote:

Compare it to medicine, if a child has an ear infection that hasn't burst, some doctors will recommend garlic oil and some will recommend antibiotics. Why? Because their understanding of medicine and the human body differs. Halacha is similar in a way

amother

Goldenrod

Mon, Apr 19 2021, 5:37 pm

amother [ Cerise ] wrote:

My issue isn't about how they get to the heter. I understand that it's a process, relying on different opinions, etc.
....
My question is WHY isn't it black and white. Torah is an instruction manual. Either this switch turns the machine on or off. WHY can you have one set of instructions for one person and a whole different set for other people.

Of all things, this is what you're having a problem with? I find that this is Torah's greatest strength! I mean, come on! We are all so very different!

If the Torah was an instruction manual, it would look like this:
Step 1: Learn Torah all day
Step 2: Never get a parnassah, God will provide.
Step 3: Marry at 18, have a child every year until you die or stop menstruating.
Rinse and repeat.

But it isn't! I'm inspired when I read books on the Mossad and see how many different roles our Yidden have to play, based on their personal lives. This one was raised by his Arab father and could thus fluently speak Arabic and was instrumental at spying in Jordan. This one excelled at warcraft and was put in charge of masterminding a mission. And of course, you have the biographies of our Gedolai Hador. And stories about personal achievements with the challenges each of us face!

I think you're asking a different question, but I can't figure out what it is.

amother

Goldenrod

Mon, Apr 19 2021, 5:43 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I understand that a rav will BH be honest if he feels a question needs a rav with more expertise, so it needs to go up a chain, till you reach a rav who will say okay you can do it.
It makes me so frustrated because for example if you want a heter for a semen analysis or iui you will eventually get a heter but only after going up and up the chain and saying your story again and again till a rav is sympathetic enough. That's how it seems to me. And of course he will say "just make a little hole in the condom", is the hole really doing anything? Why even bother? Just let a couple do what they need to do.
I'm sure there are hundreds of other examples. This is just the first that comes to mind right now.

I do hear you. I'm one of those women who do not ask for a heter for birth control. But I did go through infertility and other problems, and I remember well the hoops I had to go through.

Because I've gone through it, it made me more sensitive to the importance of things. It's not just semen, it's more than that. It's important. Why is it important? What gives things importance? What was the original issue that created the loopholes we have today? It just adds a sensitivity I wouldn't have had otherwise, had it been simple and easy.

I love about the Torah that there are still things worth fighting for. I may disagree with getting a heter to have more children (but more for reasons like I dislike the hostage-taking situation that these things engender), but the very fact that so many find it imperative reminds me over and over how important children are to us, to Hashem, to our communities. In the secular world, people look down on me for having more than two children. In the Jewish world, they're celebrated, and there's something to that. If everyone was like, "Sure! Birth control all the time, it's not all that important", I think we would lose a part of that.

And I want to stress that I am not saying that what anyone goes through with infertility treatments is anything less than heart wrenching, and I hope it brings you a total kapparah and you should be blessed with the most amazing children.