She self-identifies as a liar

amother

Mon, Sep 04 2023, 10:56 pm

My 8 year old lies. All the time.

She does it for a lot of reasons. Sometimes because she's not in the mood to do something (e.g. putting dirty socks from her floor back into her drawer instead of walking them three steps to the hamper, and then saying "But they're clean, Mommy, they just fell out of my drawer.") Sometimes because it gets her something she wants (e.g. saying some toy is hers when her brother just won it in school that day, but she wants it, so she says she won it last week and accuses her brother of lying). Things like that.

It's really constant. I'd say at least once a day, and usually several times. Over little things that seem sort of age appropriate ("I was using it first!" when I saw that her sister actually called her over to see something, and she took it from her and then refused to give it back), and over things that seem ridiculous (I was sitting right there watching, and I saw what happened, but she insists that something 100% the opposite happened).

The thing is, now she says "But I know you won't trust me because you think I lie. Even though I have NEVER lied in my whole LIFE!" Which means that I know I'm doing something wrong. She views herself as someone I don't trust.

The thing is, I don't trust her. Because she's constantly lying. So if she says "I already brushed my teeth," I go and check her toothbrush, and as I knew, it's dry, so I say "Please go brush your teeth again." It's not worth fighting, she's not going to give in anyway. She still fights, but I try not to give her the chance to lie about it...

What am I doing wrong?

amother

Navy

Mon, Sep 04 2023, 11:23 pm

Therapy? She definitely needs help.

I met a girl that age and the lies she was making up about herself were utterly ridiculous and easy to fact check. The girls her age were catching her lies and it almost became a joke for them.

Outrageous lies like being in 8th grade when you are 8 years old, living in a different city for a few months each year, going to events that there is evidence she didn't go....

The girl I met comes from a traumatic background, which is one reason kids lie.

The girls her age don't believe anything she said, even thinks that really are true, because so much she says is obviously a lie.

I'd really try to get to the bottom of it.
Psychiatrist/psychologist

amother

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 6:18 am

Hm, this isn't what I assumed the response would be. I thought people would say it's a normal phase. (She has several older siblings and although they went through a "lying" phase as toddlers or preschoolers, it was not like this, which is why I'm concerned.)

I don't hear her lying to her peers. And the lies are not like what you described, that she lived in a different city or something. They're usually to get out of doing something, or to get out of trouble, or to get something she wants. I also haven't heard anything from her teachers about it -- it seems like it's just at home.

We BH have a normal functioning house, and she has had a normal childhood. No trauma that I know of.

I have nothing against going to therapy. I have a couple of neurodivergent kids who have benefited from it. (And no, they're not the cause of this. They're very well-functioning at this point and no different than any other siblings would be to her.) But this one seems off the mark...

I'm curious if anyone else thinks that this is a major red flag, as opposed to something I can deal with with parenting strategies...

amother

Emerald

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 6:22 am

first of all time to reframe
this is not her identity
nor is it funny
there is a reason she is doing this
nonjudgementally find out over time what it is
regardless of the reason
would not think of her as a liar
would ignore much of the "lies"
would praise when she tells the truth
would not make it power struggle
would make it worth her while to tell the truth
would give natural consequences when she doesn't tell the truth for example: she lies about something then she gets the opposite of what she wants because you didn't know the truth...or like amelia bedelia literal "oh I thought xyz"
like "oh I was going to buy you what brother won because you liked it so much but since you say you already have one then I will get him another one of his choosing"
like show her the upside of telling the truth and the downside of not telling the truth
let her figure it out
it is a phase generally
different kids are different
show her that you do trust her and let her live up to it

amother

Hyssop

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 6:44 am

For starters, stop giving her opportunities to lie. Don't ask her if she brushed her teeth. Don't ask her about her socks. Don't ask her for her version. You'll need to be creative and see what works. Here are some ideas.
1. Toothbrushing - Retrain your kids how to brush their teeth like with a timer.. Do demos. Then offer prizes. First week you need to watch them brush. Next week they need to show you their wet brush and clean teeth...
Basically it's creating fresh opportunities without singing out 1 child.
2. Lying about who's toy or turn it is - try not to acknowledge what she is saying at all. Just take the toy away and tell her she needs to ask permission. She can scream it's ok. Don't let her bully the family.
3. Ignore. Ignore. Ignore. Whenever you can.
4. Praise her when you catch her being truthful.
5. Don't discuss with her whether you trust her or not. Right now she just needs to build better behavior.
I would let's say give it a month and see what happens. I don't think she needs therapy at the moment.

amother

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 7:04 am

amother Hyssop wrote:

For starters, stop giving her opportunities to lie. Don't ask her if she brushed her teeth. Don't ask her about her socks. Don't ask her for her version.

So this is what I've been doing up until now, but she lies anyway and I feel like it makes her feel I don't trust her.

I'll check her toothbrush rather than asking her if she already brushed. It's dry. So I say to her "Go brush your teeth." She says "I already did." What's the proper response? RIght now, I'll either just keep repeating "Go brush your teeth" or "Go brush them again."

Same thing with the socks. I see her toss them into the drawer. I'll say "Those socks are dirty, please put them in the hamper." She says "No they're not, they're clean! I..." To which I respond either "Please go put them in the hamper" firmly or "I'd like them in the hamper anyway."

When she fights with her brother (the sibling she plays with the most, who is honest to a fault), I honestly don't know what to do. He comes to me for help because she's lying/cheating again. If I take his side and don't listen to hers, I'm reinforcing that I don't trust her. When I've listened to her in the past, it's obvious that she's lying (or I've seen what happened and know she's lying). He won't stop playing with him -- they're each other's favorite playmates and that's like a punishment for him. They can play for an hour happily and then she's losing and will start lying...

ETA focusing on brushing her teeth or whatever doesn't seem to be the answer, since it's about everything all day. "Please clean up the [whatever]." "But I didn't play with them!" (She was playing with them for the last twenty minutes, I saw her, I was in the room, who does she think she's kidding?) "Clean them up, please." "But I didn't---" "I said clean them up please." I try not to show any emotion. I often walk out of the room after saying it once or twice, trying not to give it attention, and then come in a minute or two later if they're still not clean and "broken record" her. Eventually she cleans up, while grumbling "But I didn't do it."

amother

Crystal

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 7:11 am

amother Emerald wrote:

This!

As a mothers of teens, OP what you describe is so normal in terms of to be expected bumps in the road phases, & half, if not way more, of the job of a parent is to know where NOT to give attention.

Can you join a parenting workshop like Rabbi Dov Brezak's chinuch lifelines? But there's a variety out there, you could look around on this site.

You'll not only get guidance, but just as importantly youll hear from other mother's in real time experiencing all kinds of these typical things to help normalize kids "stuff", helping us as mother's to not be inadvertently feeding the wrong behaviors.

amother

Crystal

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 7:14 am

amother Hyssop wrote:

This too!!!!!!!!!!
Each point is so important

amother

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 10:38 am

amother Azure wrote:

Its called Self fulfilling prophecies.

Easiest way to get a child to be something is to label them that thing and believe they are that way.

Can you try the opposite now? Do the work in your heart first. Wholeheartedly believe her innocence and goodness. She never lies. Ever.
And then label her the emes girl and believe it fully. Watch the transformation.

This is theoretically what would make the most sense. But what would this look like practically?

I ask her clean up a mess she made. That I saw her make. She says she didn't do it. I say to myself "She never lies. It must be that I didnt see her make the mess. I must have been mistaken because she's so honest." So I clean it up and say to her "Oh, I didn't realize. No problem, I'll clean it up."

We're playing a game together, along with another sibling or two. She rolls a five, which would have her lose a bunch of points. She messes up the dice and then says "I rolled a four." Her siblings look at me. I say, "Okay, go ahead and move four." Because she always tells the truth. I can only imagine the response from her siblings.

Her sister is reading a book on the couch. She says "Can I see?" and then starts reading over her shoulder. Her sister feels uncomfortable and says "Can I have some space? You can read it when I'm done with it." She starts kvetching, "Mommy! I had the book first, and [sister] took it away from me and won't give it back." I've been in and out of the room the whole time and saw what happened. So I ask her sister to give her the book, or at least let her read over her shoulder? Or tell her sister it's not nice to grab, please wait your turn? After all, her sister obviously grabbed it, she doesn't lie.

While theoretically I want to treat her as trustworthy or "ignore" like everyone is saying, in real life when these things come up again and again, I feel like ignoring or assuming she's telling the truth is teaching her (and her siblings) the wrong message.

For those who are saying to ignore or to view her as trustworthy, what should I do in these situations? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I know that what I've been doing isn't working. I just don't understand how this is supposed to work.

amother

Hyssop

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 10:39 am

amother OP wrote:

Ok, I'm going to assume that when you ask her again she isn't listening to you - so it's not really a lying issue - it's laziness and not listening. When she says she brushed her teeth and you ask her to brush them again then you are implying that you don't believe her - which you don't because she didn't brush her teeth. I would then rather focus on implementing a reward system for her listening to you. What motivates her? What type of prize would she work towards? If she's motivated to brush her teeth and pick up her socks then the lying factor will start to disappear. So yes, in order to get her star she'll have to brush her teeth where you can see, she'll have to put the socks in the hamper.
So now say, if you clean up that game you'll get 3 stars doesn't make a difference if she played with it or not. Rewards work.
If do agree with the other posters you need to reframe, reframe. Try to keep things open ended - not command - you don't want her to be "not listening" to you all the time. You want to team up with her so that she feels you have her best interest in mind.
I also agree with the other poster - Rabbi Brezak is excellent.

amother

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 10:43 am

amother Glitter wrote:

I don't know if this is right approach but at this age I told child that trust has to be earned and the more she tells the truth the more I can trust. Kind of natural consequences. So if her toothbrush is usually dry when she said brushed she can be told that when you see she consistently says the truth then you won't have to doubt her. And of course complimenting the times she acts trustworthy.
Stories like The Boy Who Cried Wolf and My Name is Emes can help

Right, so this is what I've tried before. It worked with my other kids, and the phase was short-lived. This has been months. I get that it's normal, again, I have older kids. But this feel much more constant than it was with the others. We're talking several times a day, most days. At least once a day, every day.

We talk about the boy who cried wolf all the time. I don't know the Emes story, maybe I'll look for it.

amother

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 10:47 am

Thank you. I'm definitely going to look into Rabbi Brezak. Does he have a specific class on this that you could direct me to? I'd be willing to buy something reasonable if it would help me figure this out, but I don't think I need a long parenting series. I see he has shiurim on Torahanytime, I'm looking at his website, and there's a lot on there. I B"H feel like my parenting for my other kids is fine. It's just this one issue that's been a problem. Can someone point me in the right direction? Is there something specific you remember hearing him say that might help?

Sewsew_mom

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 11:12 am

Just out of the box thinking.. Did you ever discuss this with her openly?
Like hey sweety.. I've been noticing something lately. It seems when it's time for you to do a chore that may seem tedious and time consuming - they aren't really getting done. What's going on for you?
Reframe the word lie. Sounds negative and defensive worthy. Children act a certain way when they are troubled by something. They aren't evil or mentally off.
Communicate that your struggling with this with her and see how she can respond.
In my opinion which can be totally off-it seems she may not feel seen and important. And she's going towards the way of negative attention at whatever costs it takes.
Dr Becky is unbelievable when it comes to understanding how to communicate with kids (honestly it taught me how to communicate with any human) and while your probably doing a fantastic job parenting it can't hurt to listen and read up on these topics.