No socks? Is it a new trend

amother

DarkRed

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 2:03 am

1) It's important to learn/ask halachos personally rather than rely on others. (And sometimes, it depends which Rav you choose to ask and how you present the sheilah.)

2) I grew up in a diverse community. Although we had to cover our legs, we always learned that minimally, the requirement is to cover the knee and ankle according to basic halachah. I find it interesting that sometimes people cover everything except the ankle. (like with leggings)

3) Minhag hamakom and things like that are not up to an individual to determine. Ask your own rav.

4) Aside from what was mentioned above, das Yehudis is sometimes used as a reference to sensitivities, that are not halachah per se, but are praiseworthy practices.

5) In the same way that those who don't cover certain parts wish for respect, anyone who dresses in a manner different from you that covers more, deserves the same respect. What one views as halachah, another views as a chumrah. What one views as permissible, one views as only a heter in time of need. A chumrah, or sometimes just a natural positive practice, is not something to frown upon. Someone who only covers her hair partially, perhaps didn't cover her hair at all a year ago. There are so many angles. I imagine we are going to be different until Moshiach comes to resolve any misunderstandings. In the meantime, why don't we work on bettering ourselves wherever we stand, and respecting others wherever they stand?

amother

Ultramarine

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 2:36 am

amother OP wrote:

Ultramarine I noticed it in my community recent summer end fall , was on my mind for a while . Then joined imamother and decided to ask . Ive seen it here and there ouer the years but lately I thought it became a trend
in my communitty and close by . Also very thin denier pantyhose to give that look I hope you understand

Yes you said the same upthread, but that still proves my point that you clearly are living in a community that isn’t diverse, and you aren’t generally exposed to people who don’t dress like you. You said yourself that your daughters are in a school where they are required to wear chassidish tights. Chassidish communities are not reflective of the rest of global Jewish communities. Not even in the Tristate area, never mind the rest of the Jewish communities around the world. As you are noticing now, not even all Chassidim dress the same, which is why you are completely scandalized that frum people dress differently than you. It’s an extremely Insular mindset, and thoe people who live in these types of areas like yourself aren’t exposed to what the majority of Jews look and dress like. That’s why people above used the word “naive” to describe your original post. It wasn’t meant as an insult, but it’s naive to not realize that Jews can and do dress in different ways:

As others have said, it’s sad that your daughters are sensory and have a difficult time wearing their “minhag”/non-halachic tights, and you look at it as a problem. Be grateful that you aren’t sensory , and don’t feel discomfort in the clothes your community is expected to wear.

And your comment about covered feet and Mashiach, oy. Of course all Jews can greet Mashiach wearing clothing that aren’t up to the chassidish community’s standards. 🙈

Sincerely,

A woman with many chassidish relatives in Willi and boro park who BH grew up in a more open minded community, and lives a very tznius and comfortable life where I am not made to feel like I need to wear clothing (be it inside or outside my house) that would trigger my sensory issues.

amother

Phlox

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 9:08 am

gottago wrote:

According to all poskim, The halacha of minhag hamakom is decided by the "nashim tznuos" in your community. I do not believe any posek holds that it is decided by non jews.

The way I have always understood it is that the norms of non-Jews can't make the "dress code" more lenient, but they can make it stricter. If a regular OOT yeshivish woman moves to a country where all the non-Jews wear niqab and wearing a flared midi skirt with tights and a sweater is viewed as provocative and alluring, I think a rav would tell her to also comply, even if she is not in any physical danger.

And if there is a whole community of Jews there, I think that organically das yehudis or minhag hamakom, however you want to characterize it, will be such that the frum women will not have a norm of dressing in a way perceived as more alluring or provocative than the general populace.

gottago

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 9:10 am

I have done a lot of research on this topic.
1) according to most shitas, how you cover below the knee depends on minhag hamakom
2) minhag hamakom is a halachic term, not the same as minhag meaning custom
3) minhag hamakom is decided by the nashim tznuos in your community
4) R SZ Auerbach defined nashim tznuos as those who cover the parts that are assur l'chol hadeios- must be covered according to all opinions- which is most likely knees, torso, elbows and hair of married women
5) in today's day, where most of us don't live in communityies that are monolithic and/or united, makom can be decided geographically or ideologically. Meaning, what people around me wear or what members of my chasidus, yeshivish community, BY girls community, MO community wear.

BUT AGAIN, WE CAN ONLY GO BY THOSE WHO COVER THE OTHER AREAS THAT HALACHA MANAGES SHOULD BE COVERED

Yes, it has become more common in many communities for women who cover knees, hair, etc, to not cover their lower leg. If that's the case in your community, the halacha actually changed and it's no longer assur.

That does not mean that each individual lowers their standards, or should change how they cover, but it does mean that it's not assur.

And as always, judging people is assur m'dioraisa.

gottago

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 9:12 am

amother Phlox wrote:

I hear that as a general concept of not being poretz geder. But as far a lower legs, there are actual halachos in our sefarim about this.

amother

Phlox

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 9:14 am

gottago wrote:

I hear that as a general concept of not being poretz geder. But as far a lower legs, there are actual halachos in our sefarim about this.

Covering erva is not synonymous with tznius. Erva can be covered and an outfit can still be provocative. If, in context, the attire is viewed by most people in the street as outlandishly revealing, I think that creates an issue itself.

amother

Powderblue

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 9:44 am

gottago wrote:

According to all poskim, The halacha of minhag hamakom is decided by the "nashim tznuos" in your community. I do not believe any posek holds that it is decided by non jews.

So what happens if the nashum tznuos in your community decide that everyone must wear burkas?

If there are no constraints to this concept, then this can be abused as Lev Tahor did.

And what about the concept of each generation adding more and more and more, so that we end up with extremes? If every group of nashim tznuos in each generation add just one more thing, we end up with a boatload of new requirements, that technically aren't required from the Torah. That ends up morphing into a religion based on man-made edicts and social constructs that have strayed far from the original halachos.

This is what is happening nowadays. New rules are decided upon, the schools force it upon the parent body and then its considered to be the new norm. And so it repeats for each new rule. Yiddishkeit today is becoming barely recognizable to its origins.

And when someone needs some breathing room and drops one of these socially constructed rules, we consider them becoming less frum. Is it any wonder that we have a huge mess on our hands?

amother

Phlox

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 9:50 am

amother Powderblue wrote:

I definitely hear this. My understanding is that das yehudis was meant to be an organic bottom-up evolution, not something created top down by school rules or wide-scale mussar or kol koreis.

In today's age, where information is rapidly disseminated across communities and there's a ton of girls schools and camps and seminaries competing with each other reputationally, and girls competing across communities for shidduchim and other factors, I think it does create an unfortunate dynamic where das yehudis is not free to evolve organically in diverse ways in different communities but rather is pushed via global messaging and market-style pressures.

SuperWify

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 10:00 am

amother Dodgerblue wrote:

Op you obviously are part of a chassidish community. You have to realize that by definition your community norms are lifnim meshuras Hadin. It’s ok if people want go a little more mainstream. Being a chossid doesn’t work for everyone.

So much this.

The Chasidish way is beautiful. I have plenty of respect for Chasidim.

Doesn’t mean it’s for everyone. Not for even for every Chassid. The problem is that if someone is honest with themself and wants to leave to another derech he’s branded a g-o-y.

I hate to break it to you but it’s not mainstream Judaism. It’s a fairly recent derech. Before you all kill me, I love, respect, and admire Chassidim tremendously and I’m in awe of their tenacity and strength in their ways even when they make no sense to me. (Shaving, driving, wearing socks at home…)

Last edited by SuperWify on Thu, Dec 21 2023, 10:01 am; edited 1 time in total

Chayalle

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 10:00 am

amother OP wrote:

Also very thin denier pantyhose to give that look I hope you understand

Just so you know, there are great poskim (I believe R' Moshe Feinstein paskend this way) that say that any denier of stockings is sufficient, because it is debated whether one has to cover the lower leg at all.

Lakewood Rabbanim pasken to wear thicker denier, but that is a more chumrah way of paskening. I personally was taught in the BY I attended that wearing any stockings is fine. I never even heard the term denier until after I got married and moved to Lakewood.

amother

Powderblue

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 10:02 am

amother Phlox wrote:

I agree with you. And it's precisely the global messaging and market style pressures that are destroying the beauty of yiddishkeit. It has removed the individual and replaced it with a group-like mindset where people are expected to follow along in a black and white manner.

The Torah in itself provides flexibility. It promotes shivim panim l'Torah. We are gradually replacing that with a rigid one-size fits-all path. We take strong measures to maintain that rigidity by readily kicking aside anyone who isn't toeing the line exactly to the specifications. Yet we call this authentic yiddishkeit and fail to recognize how we are passively undermining the core essence of it. If we continue down this path we will end up with a new man-made version of yiddishkeit.

Chayalle

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 10:06 am

amother Phlox wrote:

You know, I think you are right.
Just like covering hair outside their homes evolved as Daas Yehudis, because the Nashim Tzidkaniyos did this on their own....in today's age there are those who want to force this kind of move to the right (with all the tznius campaigns, Erase the Lace, etc...)....

amother

Chestnut

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 10:17 am

Chayalle wrote:

I went to BY and the first time I heard the term denier was when Rabbi Falk came to visit the US and he came and gave a tznius lecture in our highschool. I thought it was a term used in Europe or something .

SuperWify

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 10:24 am

Ema of 5 wrote:

I got it after it was mentioned here multiple times, and I feel the same way!

We should start a spin off to discuss it.

After October 7 I wanted to take open myself not read non-Jewish books on Shabbos but I hate frum novels, so I had a hard time finding good reading material.

But since I’ve started reading this book on Shabbos, I cannot put it down. It’s so thought provoking and I will never take anything some so called self-professed
HS BY teacher says at face value.