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Forum
-> Parenting our children
-> Teenagers and Older children
Chayalle
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 Wed, Dec 20 2023, 10:10 am
| amother Pumpkin wrote: | | No not the reason I cover at all. I cover because of many other proof that we need to cover like sotah. |
Or maybe you have not learned the relevant Gemarahs. That according to the Torah a woman had to cover her hair only if she totally left her home and went into the city, but not in the chatzer outside her home. But the women of Klal Yisrael were tzenuot and took it upon themselves to cover outside the home, even in the Chatzer, and it became part of Daas Yehudis, which is binding on us today and why we cover.
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Chayalle
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Wed, Dec 20 2023, 10:11 am
| amother Phlox wrote: | | Das yehudis is in the mishna. It is not a recent invention. |
Exactly.
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amother
Marigold
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Wed, Dec 20 2023, 10:13 am
I’m Lakewood yeshivish Bais yaakov girl, cover my hair and legs… never heard of das Yehudis… please explain
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SuperWify
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Wed, Dec 20 2023, 10:17 am
| amother Marigold wrote: | | I’m Lakewood yeshivish Bais yaakov girl, cover my hair and legs… never heard of das Yehudis… please explain |
Read Reclaiming Dignity I cannot urge you enough.
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amother
Phlox
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Wed, Dec 20 2023, 10:18 am
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amother
Phlox
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Wed, Dec 20 2023, 10:21 am
Rabbi Anthony Manning, who wrote the halachic section of Reclaiming Dignity, has sourcesheets and shiurim on the topic for free on his website. He also has more shiurim on ou.org.
https://rabbimanning.com/audio.....niut/
(I am not advocating for or against his book, but just want to be helpful to people who are interested in his materials but don't have a copy of the book handy)
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Chayalle
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Wed, Dec 20 2023, 10:22 am
| amother Marigold wrote: | | I’m Lakewood yeshivish Bais yaakov girl, cover my hair and legs… never heard of das Yehudis… please explain |
The Halachos of tznius developed from different parts of the Torah - there's D'oraysah, Daas Yehudis, and Minhag Hamakom. (and maybe other things, I'm not an LOR!)
I learned that people used to live in clusters of houses around a joint courtyard. From the courtyard there was a street called the Mavo, and that lead to the Shuk - the city, the joint marketplace.
(sounds not so different from Lakewood developments!)
D'Oraysah a woman had to cover her hair in the shuk (and maybe also in the Mavo, I don't remember to be honest). But not in the Chatzer. That means according to the Torah you could go out in your joint yard with your hair uncovered. I'm not making this up.
But the women were tzidkaniyos and tzenuos and they didn't leave their house without covering, they covered in the chatzer. And that became Halacha (Daas Yehudis is NOT minhag - it's Halacha) and we cover when leaving our home.
There are other examples, but this sort of demonstrates how Daas Yehudis developed and became definitive Halacha, in addition of course to anything that is D'Oraysah that is Halacha.
Hope that's clear.
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amother
Crystal
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Wed, Dec 20 2023, 10:39 am
I totally get why people would wear booties and no tights.
I love the look but I dont wear it.
Please tell me what are bobby socks?
Im not from US.
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Ema of 5
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Wed, Dec 20 2023, 10:43 am
| amother Pumpkin wrote: | | Daas yehudis is not a thing in yeshivish circles it’s used in mo circles. Yeshivish use minhag hamakom for legs. So when I lived in a mixed community it was ok not to cover my whole leg, now in my yeshivish town I need to cover fully because that’s the general shitta here. |
What? Of course it is! It just may not be a term that is USED or that women are familiar with.
From http://www.kehillashagra.org/w.....y.pdf
“The laws of tznius are divided into two categories: das Moshe and das yehudis. The first category, Das Moshe, consists of the guidelines for tznius that are set forth in the torah. The second category, Das Yehudis, encompasses all the laws of tznius formulated by chazal, as well as the laws that are based on minhag.”
You may not be aware of it, but das yehudis is certainly part of a yeshivish woman’s life.
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amother
Scarlet
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Wed, Dec 20 2023, 10:45 am
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Yeah, I learned about Das Moshe and Das Yehudis in my very BY high school. From a very yeshivish teacher.
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amother
Snapdragon
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Wed, Dec 20 2023, 10:51 am
| amother OP wrote: | Lol I ask the same thing . Guess her toes are warmed by her booties . My daughters when they come home from highschool , first thing off is their heavyduty beige seemed pantyhose , they all have sensory issues with it, and hate to wear them . I wish they were allowed something more comfterable , I admire the pantyhose the school demands but feel so bad for them . One daughter actually goes around my house with bobby socks and no tights , it drives me crazy! I never went w/o tights around , she didnt see it by me . my daughter claims theres no issur to go w/o socks at home like big deal who sees me you, my ds.??! I their mom have a natrual tznius feel of being covered at all times. We all know When hashem created the womans body he said tehei isha tzenua. Tzanua means hidden.
we have to be covered why is it ok to show bare feet . Isnt there a halacha ? Maybe its just my own upbringing and community that I grew up in, that puts me in a box. im confused! |
Your dd is right. There is no issur to go without socks at home. I wouldn't make a big deal out of it.
And no, there is no halacha that bare feet need to be covered
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Ema of 5
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Wed, Dec 20 2023, 10:55 am
| amother OP wrote: | Lol I ask the same thing . Guess her toes are warmed by her booties . My daughters when they come home from highschool , first thing off is their heavyduty beige seemed pantyhose , they all have sensory issues with it, and hate to wear them . I wish they were allowed something more comfterable , I admire the pantyhose the school demands but feel so bad for them . One daughter actually goes around my house with bobby socks and no tights , it drives me crazy! I never went w/o tights around , she didnt see it by me . my daughter claims theres no issur to go w/o socks at home like big deal who sees me you, my ds.??! I their mom have a natrual tznius feel of being covered at all times. We all know When hashem created the womans body he said tehei isha tzenua. Tzanua means hidden.
we have to be covered why is it ok to show bare feet . Isnt there a halacha ? Maybe it’s just my own upbringing and community that I grew up in, that puts me in a box. im confused! |
That would be a perfect example of minhag Hamakom. There is no halacha that feet need to be covered.
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bebrave
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Wed, Dec 20 2023, 11:20 am
Double post
Last edited by bebrave on Wed, Dec 20 2023, 1:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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bebrave
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Wed, Dec 20 2023, 11:22 am
| amother OP wrote: | Lol I ask the same thing . Guess her toes are warmed by her booties . My daughters when they come home from highschool , first thing off is their heavyduty beige seemed pantyhose , they all have sensory issues with it, and hate to wear them . I wish they were allowed something more comfterable , I admire the pantyhose the school demands but feel so bad for them . One daughter actually goes around my house with bobby socks and no tights , it drives me crazy! I never went w/o tights around , she didnt see it by me . my daughter claims theres no issur to go w/o socks at home like big deal who sees me you, my ds.??! I their mom have a natrual tznius feel of being covered at all times. We all know When hashem created the womans body he said tehei isha tzenua. Tzanua means hidden.
we have to be covered why is it ok to show bare feet . Isnt there a halacha ? Maybe its just my own upbringing and community that I grew up in, that puts me in a box. im confused! |
Please go easy on your daughter. There isn't a chiyuv to wear tights at home
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SuperWify
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Wed, Dec 20 2023, 11:42 am
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If my mother made me wear socks in my own house growing up I doubt I’d be frum today. Saying this honestly. I hate when extras become absolute musts.
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amother
OP
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Wed, Dec 20 2023, 12:55 pm
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Bobby socks are those short socks that just about cover your ankels, most people wear them at night or with sneakers for extra comfort.
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amother
Dill
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Wed, Dec 20 2023, 1:00 pm
| Chayalle wrote: | The Halachos of tznius developed from different parts of the Torah - there's D'oraysah, Daas Yehudis, and Minhag Hamakom. (and maybe other things, I'm not an LOR!)
I learned that people used to live in clusters of houses around a joint courtyard. From the courtyard there was a street called the Mavo, and that lead to the Shuk - the city, the joint marketplace.
(sounds not so different from Lakewood developments!)
D'Oraysah a woman had to cover her hair in the shuk (and maybe also in the Mavo, I don't remember to be honest). But not in the Chatzer. That means according to the Torah you could go out in your joint yard with your hair uncovered. I'm not making this up.
But the women were tzidkaniyos and tzenuos and they didn't leave their house without covering, they covered in the chatzer. And that became Halacha (Daas Yehudis is NOT minhag - it's Halacha) and we cover when leaving our home.
There are other examples, but this sort of demonstrates how Daas Yehudis developed and became definitive Halacha, in addition of course to anything that is D'Oraysah that is Halacha.
Hope that's clear. |
Sounds like the original covering hair custom was more similar to how todays Muslims practice.
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amother
OP
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Wed, Dec 20 2023, 1:29 pm
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And those days they went with long dresses so the feet werent seen
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Ema of 5
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Wed, Dec 20 2023, 1:50 pm
| amother OP wrote: | | And those days they went with long dresses so the feet werent seen |
Whatever robe/tunic type clothing they wore, I doubt it covered their sandals. But no one was looking.
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amother
Jasmine
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Wed, Dec 20 2023, 1:54 pm
| SuperWify wrote: | This question is so naively sweet. What can I say.
No, not everything wears socks or tights. This is nothing new. |
I thought OP was talking weather wise. But I guess not...?
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