Is Kollel the root cause??

amother

Chicory

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 12:47 am

amother Stonewash wrote:

That's a different story and has nothing to do with the yeshiva or kollel system in place in America. Of course, someone who immigrates to a country without knowing the language is going to start off at a disadvantage.

I dont think so, because it boils down to never working before, not being financially savvy, not having skills before working, knowing what one wants to do.. The same applies to American men in kollel who marry, have kids and at age 29 have to go out to work

amother

Stonewash

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 12:48 am

amother Chicory wrote:

In what way is it different? The OP to me was about the kollel system in general which most chareidim in Israel are a part of. Except there its more of an issue if a guy doesnt start off in learning

Because an American yeshivish boy is going to be fluent in English and have basic writing and math skills. Even if secular studies is a joke once they get to high school, they do learn the basics in elementary. And most do get a high school diploma or have the skills needed to get a GED .
Not to mention that also I know charedi people from Bnei Brak too, and it's a totally different mindset than even the most yeshivish Americans.

amother

Chicory

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 12:50 am

amother Stonewash wrote:

BH my dh is good with languages and is great with English but English aside, In my post above what you just said I still dont understand how the system sets people up for success if a married man with babies, toddlers, a wife etc has to go out to work at X age and has to start schooling late, or find a career, or have family connections. Hope I am making sense

amother

Valerian

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 12:51 am

amother Chicory wrote:

In what way is it different? The OP to me was about the kollel system in general which most chareidim in Israel are a part of. Except there its more of an issue if a guy doesnt start off in learning

It's definitely different. Aren't parents usually buying an apartment before the wedding? They have govt subsidies for kids? School tuition is much cheaper.
But the agree with you that the yeshiva system doesn't set the boys up for success in supporting their families post-kollel.

amother

Stonewash

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 12:53 am

amother Chicory wrote:

An American yeshiva guy with basic skills, a high school diploma, and probably a BTL, has more advantages than an Israeli who went through the Israeli charedi system and is trying to make it in America. It's apples and oranges.

amother

Chicory

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 12:53 am

amother Valerian wrote:

It's definitely different. Aren't parents usually buying an apartment before the wedding? They have govt subsidies for kids? School tuition is much cheaper.

I guess I don't want to hijack this thread, but not every parent can afford to buy their kids apartments. My in laws definitely did not help their 6 marrieds buy apartments.

I guess I cant participate in this thread since our situation isnt the typical American kollel situation even though we do live in America, but I still am curious about the system in general and how it does work.

amother

Chicory

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 12:55 am

amother Stonewash wrote:

An American yeshiva guy with basic skills, a high school diploma, and probably a BTL, has more advantages than an Israeli who went through the Israeli charedi system and I'm trying to make it in America. It's apples and oranges.

That makes sense. Sorry if I hijacked the thread. Doesnt it put families at a disadvantage though when a guy decides to use his BTL and work towards a career even though hes married a few years and has a bunch of kids and now has to use the time to study?

amother

Steelblue

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 12:55 am

amother Melon wrote:

In my case, Kollel was not the problem. The reason we struggle is because of the yeshivas dh went to that did not teach him English. I put him through a GED program, and I had to teach him the difference between a comma and a period. I had to teach him how to spell simple words like "head". And I had to teach him multiplication and division.

He's not stupid. He learned fairly quickly from me. But he was never taught these things in school.

Omg how did he spell head! I’m scared to know 🙈
I don’t even know if my husband knows how to spell because he can’t write and has such severe OT issues that he can barely text (he comes from a kollel family). My MIL pretends he went to OT but my husband said he never went.
Only after all of this sunk in did I realize how sick this mindset is.

amother

Geranium

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 12:56 am

amother Chicory wrote:

Imamother is absolutely the last place to find out the truth. Better to ask people you know IRL. You really don't know anybody who's in kollel?

amother

Chicory

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 12:59 am

amother Geranium wrote:

Imamother is absolutely the last place to find out the truth. Better to ask people you know IRL. You really don't know anybody who's in kollel?

Of course I do. But its socially off to ask questions IRL. I just reread the OP and I have the same question as her "Second, the kollel system strongly encourages staying in kollel until it does not financially work. The problem is that by that point it’s often too late for men to become successful in a high earning career, because they don’t have the luxury of starting off as low earner or going to school." Just curious in America how so many men that leave kollel are successful. I guess their time in yeshiva brought mazal + bracha, or they had conenctions, or they were supported at some point.

amother

Stonewash

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 1:01 am

amother Chicory wrote:

It really depends but most people who did this successfully did one or more of these things,: chose a field that doesn't take so long, or started to work on this before they became desperate, or took out student loans, or got a basic type of job and did schooling at night etc. The people who struggle usually wait till they are desperate or are very unrealistic about the type of job they want to pursue.

I remember reading an interview with R Kamenetzky in the yated some years ago and he stated that kollel guys should think ahead and start planning towards a job a couple of years before it's absolutely necessary.

amother

Geranium

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 1:07 am

amother Chicory wrote:

You have the forever learners here, like they are in Israel, and those are probably the families that struggle the most, honestly.

Plenty of guys leave kollel and do very well, there are a lot of jobs or ways to make money that doesn't require a degree. Men start businesses, work under someone else for a while and work their way up...

For those who get a degree after they leave kollel, presumably their wives are still working at least until they graduate. Or maybe they get family help.

LovesHashem

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 2:02 am

amother Lightyellow wrote:

You're right. But unfortunately it's the way of the world for most families, not only kollel. It's one of the downsides...I won't deny it. But there are so many upsides. Isn't that what life is all about? Weighing choices and making decisions that we feel are best for our family?

Missed the rest of the thread cuz I was sleeping and I'm not reading back ten pages. But yeah I know most people need to incomes, but in a scnerio where husband is in kollel and wife is working and they are already surviving on one income, then the wife should stay home and the husband should work.

Kollel is nice before you have kids. I don't think children should be sacraficed on the mezbaich of kollel. In Israel I definitely see women with high tech jobs, come home at 5 or 6 and barely see their babies while the husband is in kollel. That's just not ideal.

amother

Cappuccino

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 4:04 am

amother Stonewash wrote:

There are mechinot here geared to kolel men leaving kolel. My friend runs one and she said their training to think and their motivation means they get through courses way quicker than the standard. Also the government desperately want charedim to get jobs so the courses are subsidised. Israeli guys who want to make it in Israel have it much easier by the sound of things than Americans trying to make it in America. I also think that OP is discussing the Lakewood cheider system which doesn't seem to provide a high school diploma.

amother

Viola

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 7:01 am

amother Buttercup wrote:

Agreed...especially in the MO world where they are so career focused. For example, so many of the young women go to medical school and become doctors. Why is that ok?

What do you mean, why is that OK? B"H we live in a world where our ability to get a job and/or use our G-d-given brains and talents is not limited or determined by our gender.

I do not either think that encouraging universal kollel is a smart societal move, but everyone is free to choose what they want to do with their lives. Kol hakavod to those who choose kollel, it's a beautiful lifestyle. Just don't think it is for everyone.

amother

Stonewash

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 7:01 am

amother Cappuccino wrote:

These things you describe in Israel are a much more recent development. Maybe the past 10 years? It definitely wasn't stuff that was around 20 years ago. And they developed precisely because there was such a need, just like Nachal chareidi.

When you refer to a "cheider" system that sounds like the chassidish school system, just by your spelling? That's different than what we are discussing and also, not high schools. That's a totally different school system.
Anyway not all BMG kollel students come from Lakewood, not by far, they come from all over. And most American yeshiva high schools do have options to get diplomas. And if not, it's not that big a deal for your average yeshivish teen to get a GED. They might need to do a bit of tutoring or take a prep class, most likely for higher mathematics but they have the basics already and can do the studying on their own.

Chayalle

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 8:26 am

amother OP wrote:

OK, you seem to have no doubt that you made the right decision in sending out your infants so that you can support your husband in kollel. So I’m sure you’ll have no problem telling us honestly exactly what the babysitter/baby ratio was. Please do answer. I promise I won’t bash you regardless of your answer. I just really want to know.

Also, even you can’t deny that the way Hashem created the world is for the husband to have the burden of parnassah, and for women to have the burden of childcare. This is a concept that’s woven into the fabric of torah. So I don’t see how you can say that centering kolle first and then working the children around it can be the right way of the world.

Edit: changed “ugly decision” to “right decision”! It was a total typo but I guess also a Freudian slip

I'm not that poster but have to respond to this. I'll bite. My girls went to babysitters with at most 6 kids in the group, and for different hours (IOW not all were full-time). Yes, I paid well for smaller groups. BTW I recently met some of the mothers who sent to the same babysitter as my DD, who just got married. Let's see. One (mother) was in law school. One was two working parents. One Chassidish couple with a family business. Myself and one other were with husbands in Kollel (who has since transitioned to the working world).

As far as how Hashem created the world, he definitely created different men and women, with many different Kochos. Mine was definitely cut out for long-term learning. And Hashem definitely gave me a certain type of brain and abilities and sheifos for a reason. Our lifestyle and choices work for us.

As I said in my first post on this thread, this is about people making choices with long-term goals in sight. It's when these goals get lost that things get messed up.

amother

Holly

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 8:51 am

amother Stonewash wrote:

This is dependent on the yeshiva. There are a significant number of yeshivas that dont provide the basic skills, and don't offer high school secular education.

Those kids are hit with a double whammy. No education and dealing with challenges of kollel lifestyle.