Is Kollel the root cause??

amother

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 11:25 pm

amother Holly wrote:

Agree with this.

But here is where the cynical part of myself kicks in. I think financial literacy is intentionally withheld because plenty of then would then buck the kollel system. If they'd have the full understanding how difficult it is to become financially stable after kollel, a good many would opt out. Teaching financial literacy would significantly undermine the effort to promote the kollel system as the one-size-fits-all lifestyle. The only way they can continue to encourage everyone to stay in the kollel system is to bury the truth and pretend its mostly nice and rosy.

Holly are you me??? You literally keep taking the words out of my mouth. Thank you for defending my points so eloquently across many posts.

amother

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 11:31 pm

amother Lightyellow wrote:

Don't mock my parenting. You don't know me. None of my babies ever went out at 6 weeks. I don't owe you explanations but I will say that sending my babies out is very hard for me. It's something that I thought about alot and something I discussed with people who know me and my situation well. I also know that daycare aren't exclusively filled with kollel kids...far from it. At least my children rank alot higher in my mind than any career ever will.

You'll also never know how many sacrifices and decisions I make in my life for my children. Find me the lifestyle that promotes the perfect life for all children not just infants but in every aspect of their day. The effect of a talmid chochom father on a household is tremendous. I'm tremendously proud and thankful for the home wr built. Are we perfect? Far from it. Are we constantly striving to improve our parenting and be there for our kids? A resounding yes.

OK, you seem to have no doubt that you made the right decision in sending out your infants so that you can support your husband in kollel. So I’m sure you’ll have no problem telling us honestly exactly what the babysitter/baby ratio was. Please do answer. I promise I won’t bash you regardless of your answer. I just really want to know.

Also, even you can’t deny that the way Hashem created the world is for the husband to have the burden of parnassah, and for women to have the burden of childcare. This is a concept that’s woven into the fabric of torah. So I don’t see how you can say that centering kolle first and then working the children around it can be the right way of the world.

Edit: changed “ugly decision” to “right decision”! It was a total typo but I guess also a Freudian slip

amother

Geranium

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 11:34 pm

amother Holly wrote:

Whoever is in charge of the boys education system. Why aren't the boys taught basic life skills so that they have the means to earn a parnossoh to support their families? Why aren't they taught basic budgeting and financial literacy if they literally have the obligation to support their families?

When the system provides only one type of education, parents have no options. (I don't consider leaving the system an option.) The kids are only prepared for one type of lifestyle - kollel. That is a means of force.

I think it's too systematic (encompassing both litvish and Chassidish yeshivos) for this to be deliberate on anyone's part.

I wonder if this attitude is actually coming from the parents, and works it's way up to the hanhalah. This is the only way I can possibly explain it, because it actually makes no sense and goes against the advice of our gedolim, from what I understand.

amother

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 11:35 pm

amother Azalea wrote:

How many mothers on here are SAHM in the JPF/MO world?

Most are sending out their babies also (often for far longer hours since not working in frum companies like a large portion do in the Yeshivish community do/or their dh hours are also less flexible than a kollel guy so can't share any of the childcare), so I'm not sure why you're so intent on pushing this point.

Of all my friends in the JPF world, many of them stop working after their second or third child. Some of them continue working but they hire a private babysitter or share a babysitter in their home with one other baby. I’m straining to think of any, maybe there’s one or two, that send their infants out of the house to babysitting groups. And is only done out of necessity almost never by choice.

Compare that to the kollel lifestyle which first decides that kollel comes before all else and only then factors infants into the picture.

amother

Holly

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 11:43 pm

amother Geranium wrote:

It wasn't deliberate as a large scale effort in a short period of time. It developed gradually over the years. The push for the kollel lifestyle got slowly woven into the fabric. They gradually reduced the secular education. They upped the promotion of long term learning. Women were slowly encouraged to bear the burden of parnossoh. And anything that comes to light, is decided upon based on the lens of kollel learning & not on its own merit. That's how we got where we are today.

At the start, this was a push from the top. Now, its coming from the parents. The parents are the products of the system, and now their success and community status rests on perpetuating this system. There are some leaders who have recognized the need to make some changes but they're finding significant pushback from the parents.

amother

Geranium

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 11:49 pm

amother OP wrote:

So it's ok to send your first, second and third child to a babysitter but not ok to send your fourth or your fifth? Does something magically happen to make babysitters ok for those but not those?

amother

Lightyellow

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 12:07 am

amother Chicory wrote:

How does one work part time, not send their babies out at 6 weeks and support a family where the DH is in kollel? I barely struggle with my salary, I'm the main breadwinner and we are always in the negative

Come to the magical kollel land...I'm joking. I work part time out if the house, self employed in a high earning skill that I do when the kids are sleeping. My little ones come home at 2. I work hard, there were times when we were more financially stable than we are now. Bh we cover our bills but were tight. Regarding 6 weeks, nj has generous family leave bh!!

amother

Lightyellow

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 12:09 am

amother OP wrote:

Why do I have to answer that question? It feels like a doomed one on this thread. I will say that it was a ratio that I felt comfortable with and a morah that I felt safe with.

amother

SandyBrown

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 12:09 am

amother OP wrote:

Holly are you me??? You literally keep taking the words out of my mouth. Thank you for defending my points so eloquently across many posts.

The veil is off and OP’s kollel hatred is on full display.

This must be the same OP who started that despicable anti-babysitter thread a while back. Started off thoughtfully but regressed into narcissistic behavior.

(FTR I’m not a kollel wife. I also have some issues with some aspects of the yeshivish system. But I recognize hate when I see it.)

amother

Wheat

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 12:10 am

amother Oldlace wrote:

Elite and elitist are two different words with different meanings. I was responding to a post in which the word you used was elitist.
My beliefs aren’t relevant when people like the great roshei yeshiva of the twentieth century instituted a system that their students continue to uphold, but since you asked -
I believe the kollel system should be promoted. Torah thrives on respect for the individual. Individuals should use their wisdom and the wisdom of those they choose to advise them to develop their personal lifestyles in accordance with their personal circumstances, capabilities and aspirations.
That’s pretty much the system in place in America today. The system in Israel is somewhat different but hard for me to comment on because it’s less familiar to me.

Okay, I made a mistake. I meant elite. It's irrelevant to what I was trying to say.

I'm actually going to change my original post because I really didn't intend to make the gedolim out to be arrogant. I meant most elite, as in high-level. Leaving it as is feels yucky to me.

Thank you for pointing it out.

amother

Lightyellow

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 12:12 am

amother Holly wrote:

Good question. Very likely this is a unique situation, and not the norm of the kollel lifestyle.

If this is indeed the situation, then wouldn't this person have a biased view of the kollel lifestyle, or possibly lack awareness of the true struggles others deal with ?

Yes. I am unique. I was never supported. Paid for almost everything when I got married so had almost zero savings. I'm not on programs and I don't have a degree. How I live? Hard work. Choices. G-d, G-d, G-d.

amother

SandyBrown

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 12:12 am

amother Lightyellow wrote:

Why do I have to answer that question? It feels like a doomed one on this thread. I will say that it was a ratio that I felt comfortable with and a morah that I felt safe with.

Light yellow, you have been thoughtful and honest throughout this thread. OP and some others here just want to bash the system. The point of this thread isn’t to point out issues, it was to denigrate kollel and degrade the yeshivish community.

amother

Chicory

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 12:12 am

amother Lightyellow wrote:

Ha, you made me chuckle. Can I ask what you do?
I am resentful that I have a "high paying career" (not really, the pay is so bad), my masters was expensive, I work 9-3, commute an hour home, work in the evenings too.. Im so fed up..

amother

Wheat

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 12:13 am

I happen to think that this thread has changed it's tone and I no longer agree with much of what's being discussed.

I will not nitpick on mother's roles, sending babies out of the house, or personally attack anyone for the life choices they have made etc.

I love kollel. I think it's one of the most beautiful things. It's such a privilege and it often takes tremendous misirus nefesh. I also feel that promoting it as a norm to all of society is problematic for a number of reasons.

That's my only point.

amother

Chicory

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 12:14 am

amother SandyBrown wrote:

I thought OP was respectful and I had a lot of the same questions she had. I dont know how I will ever be able to set my girls up for success with the kollel system. My husband did not speak English when we met, did not know how to write properly, do basic math. No support so we couldnt start off in kollel even though we desperately wanted to. Actually, he learned for a few weeks and then had to start a job asap because we had $1000 between the two of us. And now I look at my kolllel friends making it and we are struggling. DH had to start learning a new field as soon as we got married. Not sure what we did wrong either. Guess we arent part of the lucky ones who make it

amother

Tulip

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 12:15 am

amother Lightyellow wrote:

Off topic but you get FMLA when you’re self employed? Very cool!

amother

Lightyellow

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 12:15 am

Some ppl here are so anti kollel they want to hear that we are all suffering m, that we were forced into a terrible situation. That our children are neglected and we can't afford food.

Do you hate for saying that Hashem has never let me down? I'm sorry if you do but its the absolute truth.

And all of you who think we are covering up and only touting the successful ones - what would your dream plan be? Which lifestyle is so super successful and foolproof that we should all be following it?