Two daughters, sticky situation

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amother

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 6:29 pm

I have a sensitive situation. I'm wondering if anyone has any insight.

I have two daughters who have always had somewhat of a complicated relationship.
They are both wonderful people, but have very different natures. They are two years apart.

The younger sister always felt that the older sister did not like her. She confided in me that in school, she would always see other older sisters being nice to their younger sisters in her grade, whereas her older sister always "snobbed her out".

The younger sister is the sensitive type who will make welcome home signs for her older sister when she came back from seminary or camp. She would prepare her favorite foods and go all out to show she cares. She always feels that her love is not appreciated or even acknowledged. She always wished her older sister would call her, or confide in her.

I think my older daughter found her sister somewhat annoying at times, though I'm not sure why, since she is not an annoying type.

My older daughter is now married and out of the house. She lives in another city. She had plans to go to a relative for Shabbos. It just so happens that my younger daughter had plans to be in that city for Shabbos and made plans to stay with the same relative over shabbos. When she heard that her older sister would also be there (with her husband and baby) she was excited but worried that her sister would not want her there.

Sure enough, when my older daughter heard that her sister was planning to be there for Shabbos, she texted her about it.
Younger sister asked her straight out, "You don't want me there? If not, just let me know, I'll find another place to go."

Older sister said she will think about it.
She got back to her the next day saying that she would prefer if she goes to another relative for Shabbos, since she was hoping for a "quiet" Shabbos. We have plenty of other relatives she could go to for Shabbos in that city.

Understandably, younger sister is extremely hurt.

I don't like to mix in to these relationships, especially since my older daughter is married. But I was really perplexed about the situation. I was not understanding what makes my older daughter think she can tell her younger sister not to go to to a relative, at which she will be a guest as well.

So I called her and asked her. She said that it's her husband who prefers to have a "quiet shabbos" and somehow would feel a bit uncomfortable having his sister in law there for shabbos.

So, while my older daughter feels bad, she felt a bit torn between her husband and sister's feelings. And being that her sister offered to not go if she wasn't wanted, she felt it was okay to tell her better not.

As a mother, I don't want to c"v do or say anything that would put my daughter in an uncomfortable situation with her husband. At the same time, the only reason younger sister is taking this so badly is because it's riding on years of emotional pain where she felt rejected by her sister. I don't think she has to tell her younger sister that it's really her husband who prefers she isn't there, but at the same time, letting her know that it's not personal between them too will take away some of the sting.

Just wondering if others have dealt with a similar situation.
Should the younger sister go anyway, even after being told she wasn't wanted? Or should she rather go to another relative? Should older sister tell her husband he doesn't get to decide who else is a guest at their host's house?

Just to clarify, her husband is a big baal middos, not a selfish person at all. And obviously I don't really know what he really thinks, but this is the information I have.

amother

Chartreuse

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 6:45 pm

Older dd needs to learn to be menschlich. She had this conversation and told her sister not to come to a relative by text? This is not a texting conversation. This is a conversation where she calls her sister, tells her that she loves having her around and it’s just that her husband really needs to unwind over Shabbos. YES, put it on her husband. It’s not anything against him but she needs to make it very clear that she has nothing against her sister.

Younger dd will probably be uncomfortable going there for Shabbos, so while older dd is rude to disinvite I doubt younger dd will want to go anyway. But older dd needs to understand that she is burning her relationship with her sibling. This is not about her husband wanting a quiet shabbos. This is about giving her sister clear signals that she’s not worth the time of day and that she has no interest in interacting with her.

amother

Mintgreen

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 6:46 pm

Don't think you should get more involved, I general it sounds like she perceives her younger sister as a "threat" (as in people will compare them) and she lacks confidence. Ideally don't mention her excuse to your younger daughter cause it's probably not true. Tell your younger daughter that it was really generous of her to offer and it sounds like she has a heart of gold, the schar she gets for always giving in will be great.

amother

Petunia

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 6:46 pm

If older sister wanted a quiet Shabbos she should have gone elsewhere. This is really hurtful and not ok. I’d tell her she should be careful about not hurting her sister.

amother

Honeydew

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 6:46 pm

I feel your pain, but this is between your two daughters and you should stay out of it. No matter what you do, one or both will resent your ~~interference~~ involvement.

Assuming your older dd is telling the truth and it's her dh who doesn't want his sil there--why is she letting him decide? This is a relative on her side, no? He needs to grow up, man up, and put someone else first. He wants a quiet Shabbos? He can have one another time--though how noisy can one single young lady be?

If your older dd is ~~lying~~ bending the truth and it is really she who doesn't want her sister around--she also needs to grow up, woman up, and quit being so selfish. Assuming your relative has adequate space to accommodate both, it won't kill her to spend a Shabbat being civil to her kid sister. Maybe she needs therapy to figure out why she has such a negative attitude towards her kid sister. I'm betting it's jealousy, plain and simple. When she was two she may have been understandably jealous that a newcomer robbed her of her status as the little princess, deflected attention away from her, maybe seemed cuter, prettier, smarter or whatever. But that had to have been close to 20 years ago if not more, and it's high time she got over it.

These are my feelings on the issue, but I'm just telling you my take on the situation as you presented it. I still believe that you have to stay out of it and let the two sisters work it out themselves.

amother

Pumpkin

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 6:47 pm

I can completely relate to your post. It sounds like my two girls, who are two years apart. If it was my daughter, I would suspect it is coming from her and not my son-in-law. I’m not trying to throw your dd under the bus, maybe yours is different than mine, but I know my daughter and my son-in-law.
My older daughter thinks she’s cooler than my younger daughter. She was “top girl”, skinny, pretty, fashionable, and absolutely charming. My younger daughter, is socially awkward, and clearly an embarrassment – but has the most beautiful middot and is a baalat chessed. I think my older daughter was, and is still afraid that my younger daughters, not coolness, will reflect poorly her.
Boost your younger daughters, self-confidence, and self-esteem. Do not throw your son-in-law under the bus. Do not have her go anyway, as she will feel like a third wheel between the host and your older daughter, as older DD would manipulate. And /or your older daughter will just not engage with her nicely . You should tell your older daughter, that it would be nice if she invited your younger daughter for Shabbos in a week or two. (send the food with your younger daughter to your older one if you need to.)

amother

Amaranthus

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 6:50 pm

Older daughter is totally in the wrong. She doesn't own the world. I really feel sorry for the younger daughter. She's tried to make a connection with her older sister, but to no avail. It's very sad, because your older daughter is not a child anymore, she should have learned how to be a nice person long ago.

The only reason I can say this is because I was like your older daughter once upon a time. BH I have a wonderful relationship with my younger sister now, but it took some growing up on my part to make that happen.

I happen to think your older daughter used her husband as a scape goat. If he's a baal middos, he probably wouldn't mind having his SIL around at a relative for shabbos.

What kind of relative is this? Are they a family?

If younger daughter has a good reason to be there, I think she should still go. If it was just to chill, for her own sake, I suggest she shouldn't because she's obviously not welcome by older sister. My opinion.

amother

Cherry

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 6:52 pm

OP I really feel bad for your younger daughter. She sounds like a very sweet and feeling young lady. I really hope one day the older daughter can see how good her sister is but this is between the 2 sisters. I don't think it's for you to fix. I hope the younger one will try to stop proving herself and will move on with healthier friendships. Not all sisters are best friends. I assume the older one is jealous of the younger one.

amother

Taupe

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 6:53 pm

Could it be that it's simply older dd's mikvah night and she's afraid younger dd will ask where she's going?

amother

Chartreuse

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 6:56 pm

amother Pumpkin wrote:

The way op describes her sil and dd, it seems almost definite that her daughter is the one behind this and trying to put it on her husband. I could be wrong but it’s definitely the vibe I get.

dena613

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 6:56 pm

amother Pumpkin wrote:

You should tell your older daughter, that it would be nice if she invited your younger daughter for Shabbos in a week or two. (send the food with your younger daughter to your older one if you need to.)

Don't do this.

Your older dd and/or her dh doesn't want to be around younger dd. Don't force her on them.

I feel bad for your younger dd.

But there might be more to the story.
I'm learning more and more that sometimes there is more to the story.

amother

Petunia

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 6:57 pm

I think the advice I always see of stay out is just plain wrong. In fact it’s anti Torah. We are supposed to help bring shalom and help people in pain not stick out head in the sand because it’s not our concern. She’s their mother, she should absolutely get involved and help them solve this situation.

amother

PlumPink

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 6:57 pm

Confused. Why was the option for younger dd to fo somewhere else and not the couple?

amother

Amaranthus

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 7:02 pm

dena613 wrote:

I'm not saying she should do this, but I don't like the phrase "force her on them"

They made plans separately to go to the same relative! Younger daughter has just as much of a right to be there as older daughter. Maybe older daughter shouldn't force her family on younger daughter's chill.

amother

Impatiens

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 7:08 pm

amother Taupe wrote:

Could it be that it's simply older dd's mikvah night and she's afraid younger dd will ask where she's going?

I feel like even if this is the case it's not worth hurting younger sisters feelings. You either tell her it's your mikvah night, come up with a good excuse why you are leaving, or don't answer her questions. Not worth the pain to tell her not to come bc of your own embarrassment!

amother

Crimson

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 7:20 pm

My older sisters are over 30 years old and still don't talk to each other. This is not something that will magically go away with age. In fact your older daughter is 20 and married and still acting like a high schooler. How can she even disinvite the dd from a 3rd party relative? She has issues and needs therapy sorry.

seeker

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 7:25 pm

I'm so confused... If the husband wants a quiet shabbos, wouldn't that mean staying at home rather than going to this mutual relative? I would have a very hard time not giving older daughter a tongue lashing (granted, maybe I'm just harsh like that.) If she doesn't want to be at the same relative as younger sister, then let her make different plans, who is she to tell younger sister where to go if the host apparently already invited both of them?

amother

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 7:32 pm

amother Chartreuse wrote:

To clarify, she initially texted her to ask her, but they did end up speaking when she told her it's better if she doesn't go there for Shabbos.

amother

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 7:39 pm

Thanks all of you for your responses.
For the record, I do believe my older daughter when she says it's her husband. I don't think she has a reason to lie.

I am not sure why her husband would care to have his sister in law there. That part confuses me. She can actually help out a lot with the baby.

I feel like there's something here I'm not getting. I am almost positive she is not going to the mikva.

My older daughter is generally a healthy mature young lady, but somehow this relationship with her sister is not okay. It's like she doesn't care to have a relationship with her.

I did notice that she has no problem asking her younger sister for favors, such as borrowing her clothes or shoes.

amother

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 7:41 pm

seeker wrote:

You are right. That's the part that doesn't make sense. The relative they are going to has little kids, and they are very quiet (according to older daughter). So it would be two adults (hosts), my daughter and son in law, and my younger daughter would be another adult.

I think she felt she could tell my younger daughter not to come because she offered to stay away if she wasn't wanted. I told my younger dd that she should never have offered that. But she felt she was put on the spot when older dd texted her asking if she was coming.

Also, realize that we don't live in the same city, so it's not as if the two of them spend a lot of time together. They see each other every infrequently.

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