Two daughters, sticky situation

amother

Bone

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 6:10 am

amother OP wrote:

I have a sensitive situation. I'm wondering if anyone has any insight.

I have two daughters who have always had somewhat of a complicated relationship.
They are both wonderful people, but have very different natures. They are two years apart.

The younger sister always felt that the older sister did not like her. She confided in me that in school, she would always see other older sisters being nice to their younger sisters in her grade, whereas her older sister always "snobbed her out".

The younger sister is the sensitive type who will make welcome home signs for her older sister when she came back from seminary or camp. She would prepare her favorite foods and go all out to show she cares. She always feels that her love is not appreciated or even acknowledged. She always wished her older sister would call her, or confide in her.

I think my older daughter found her sister somewhat annoying at times, though I'm not sure why, since she is not an annoying type.

My older daughter is now married and out of the house. She lives in another city. She had plans to go to a relative for Shabbos. It just so happens that my younger daughter had plans to be in that city for Shabbos and made plans to stay with the same relative over shabbos. When she heard that her older sister would also be there (with her husband and baby) she was excited but worried that her sister would not want her there.

Sure enough, when my older daughter heard that her sister was planning to be there for Shabbos, she texted her about it.
Younger sister asked her straight out, "You don't want me there? If not, just let me know, I'll find another place to go."

Older sister said she will think about it.
She got back to her the next day saying that she would prefer if she goes to another relative for Shabbos, since she was hoping for a "quiet" Shabbos. We have plenty of other relatives she could go to for Shabbos in that city.

Understandably, younger sister is extremely hurt.

I don't like to mix in to these relationships, especially since my older daughter is married. But I was really perplexed about the situation. I was not understanding what makes my older daughter think she can tell her younger sister not to go to to a relative, at which she will be a guest as well.

So I called her and asked her. She said that it's her husband who prefers to have a "quiet shabbos" and somehow would feel a bit uncomfortable having his sister in law there for shabbos.

So, while my older daughter feels bad, she felt a bit torn between her husband and sister's feelings. And being that her sister offered to not go if she wasn't wanted, she felt it was okay to tell her better not.

As a mother, I don't want to c"v do or say anything that would put my daughter in an uncomfortable situation with her husband. At the same time, the only reason younger sister is taking this so badly is because it's riding on years of emotional pain where she felt rejected by her sister. I don't think she has to tell her younger sister that it's really her husband who prefers she isn't there, but at the same time, letting her know that it's not personal between them too will take away some of the sting.

Just wondering if others have dealt with a similar situation.
Should the younger sister go anyway, even after being told she wasn't wanted? Or should she rather go to another relative? Should older sister tell her husband he doesn't get to decide who else is a guest at their host's house?

Just to clarify, her husband is a big baal middos, not a selfish person at all. And obviously I don't really know what he really thinks, but this is the information I have.

Didn't read the whole thread.

Husbands are great people to blame/ they are good excuses when things get uncomfortable.

If the husband is a big baal middos and not selfish then it's likely your older daughter is using him as an excuse not to spend Shabbat with the younger daughter.

Just my 2 cents and no you can't really do anything about it except offer emotional support and validation to the younger daughter.

amother

Hibiscus

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 7:12 am

You sound so centered around this issue, I’m really impressed w you.
I don’t think it matters if it was your older dd’s husband that preferred not to have your younger daughter (I think she used that an excuse so it doesn’t seem like her ‘fault’ for turning away your younger daughter) but either way, even if her husband said he wanted a quiet shabbos, she still could have said darling husband I don’t want to hurt my sister and we really can’t uninvite her. None of this is in your control though. If it were me then I would call older dd this morning and just give her the information that what she is doing to younger dd is hurtful and can have irreparable damage to the relationship. She can do w that info whatever she chooses but you would think she might want to speak to DH and reconsider telling younger dd that she thought abt it further and would really like her to come. For the younger dd, I think I would be treating this as if a sister in law or friend is pushing her away and teach her to focus on building relationships w siblings/relatives/friends that reciprocate, and to have low expectations about older dd, I would not say that older dd has ‘bad midos’ bec this is one mida. But I would say she doesn’t realize that what she is doing is hurtful. I would want younger dd to understand that it is very valid to feel hurt by this situation and hopefully as older dd matures then she will be more sisterly and place more of a value on other ppl’s feelings and on the sister relationship in general. And till then, younger dd needs to realize that older dd is limited in this way and try to set lower expectations on older dd and work on other relationships instead.

yamaha

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 8:39 am

How are younger DDs other relationships? Does she have a tendency to go out of her way to please with her friends and other siblings? Take responsibility for things that other people did? I think she should be the focus because she's always going to encounter people who (unintentionally or intentionally) won't "get" the call for approval and validation.

amother

Lightpink

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 10:32 am

Just here to say how hard this if for you to watch this… I would not be able to restrain myself and my older daughter would get a talking to. Unless younger daughter did something highly inappropriate with older daughter’s husband nothing can excuse this. It hurts to see our kids not be Bffs we all have this dream of our siblings being supper close …

ittsamother

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 10:56 am

This story has been on my mind ever since OP posted it. I'm still so hurt for younger sis. I too would not be able to stop myself from giving older sis a gentle private talk. How does she not realize how hurtful she was?? For heaven's sake, you suck it up, it's one day and it's your sis, you deal with it and if it's so hard then maybe in future you take steps to make sure a situation like this can't happen again- when you make plans to go away for Shabbos you can ask the hostess to please not have additional guests, you really want to spend time just with her, something like that. But once your lil sis is already invited, and then sadly feels the need to offer not to come, the only possible answer is, "What, of course you should come, I'd love to see you!" Period.

Poor lil sis.

amother

Beige

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 11:02 am

I've been thinking about this thread...I have two daughters a couple of years apart. Still elemantary age. But I see their dynamic so much like op describes..the younger one desperate for approval/ attention from her older sister, the older one always criticizing/ bossing/ ignoring younger one.
I was hoping it would change naturally as they mature but now I'm getting nervous that it won't..
What can I/ should I do to encourage a healthier relationship?

amother

Hydrangea

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 11:10 am

I have 2 daughters 4 years apart. Older dd gets really annoyed from younger dd. They're still very young so I hope it resolves itself. But I get really hurt for my younger dd when her sis rejects her.

amother

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 11:27 am

Thank to all of you who took the time to respond.

Just to explain a bit more. Younger dd has a beautiful personality. The type that everyone wants around. When she asked the relative if she could come for Shabbos, the relative was so excited. And, as her mother, I know how others view her. Like a ray of sunshine. She is also very helpful, great with kids, and an all around lovely girl.

Older dd has many great qualities as well. I don't like to compare the two (though others do it all the time). She is somewhat more reserved, with a bit of a tougher exterior. She is quite blunt at times. I do believe she has a beautiful relationship with her husband, which is the main thing, and I'm so grateful for that.

But, honestly, I don't get it. I don't get what would make her tell her sister not to come for Shabbos. It's not like they had a falling out or anything.

I believed her when she said it was her husband, only because I don't know her to be a liar. But it makes no sense either, being that my younger dd has nothing to do with her brother in law, other than just being regular polite.

I did speak to her, just because I needed to understand her better. I am sure she sees things from her own perspective and I wanted to understand it. I can't say I got any smarter from the conversation, other than her saying that she has been making a much greater effort to reach out to her sister in the last few months. The sense I got is that she couldn't explain it to me because she thought she would be judged for her feelings.

I advised my younger dd to strick to her plan of going for shabbos, even if she thinks it will be awkward. I also explained to her that she can change the steps of the dance. Its very much in her hands.
Older dd reached out to ask her if she wants to spend Sunday with her.

Yes, this whole thing is painful for me to watch. I still have hope that one day, the two of them will be close.

amother

Emerald

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 11:27 am

amother Beige wrote:

That's very normal for younger children. I was like that too. We're adults now and super close!

mitzva

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 11:31 am

OP, you said it correct: Sticky situation.

Somehow it evolved that your older daughter doesnt treat your younger daughter nicely.
Its already part and parcel of her identity.

I hope things get better.

amother

Mocha

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 11:34 am

Does older DD have difficulty with social cues? Does she have a tendency to take things literally? Did she take "You don't want me there? If not, just let me know, I'll find another place to go." as her backing out?

BH Yom Yom

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 11:43 am

OP, you sound like a supportive and caring mom. Both your DDs are fortunate to have you. 💜

amother

Teal

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 1:51 pm

Maybe older DD feels like younger DD always gets the spotlight, due to her more sunny personality and older DD's more gruff one?

amother

Cornsilk

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 2:11 pm

ittsamother wrote:

I'm worried that if mom has this talk with big sister that big sister will call little sister and yell at her . 😢 it will just backfire .. but little sister should definitely stand up for herself and go

ittsamother

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 2:13 pm

amother Cornsilk wrote:

I mean, big sis already knows mom knows, they already did talk about it... OP said so in the original post, where big sis told OP it's cuz of her husband.

amother

Babyblue

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 2:43 pm

amother OP wrote:

I have a little bit similar dynamics between my 2 girls.
But they are much younger.
They are both amazing kids and have so much going for them bh.
But the younger kid is more bubbly, cutsie and, attractive with those deep big dark dancing eyes. And an insanely infectious laugh.
And when they are together she feels threatened. And so she treats her younger sister like yours does hers. My younger dd does everything to win her effection only to be hurt again. It's very painful to watch. My kids are younger and I DO intervene.

It's something I am working on now with my kids.

I think this would be an avenue to explore and work on.
It's not too late.

joonabug

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 2:54 pm

older sis sounds plain mean. I feel bad for younger sis. all she wants is her big sis to like her yet she constantly hurts her. so not okay. I would be very upset if my daughter acted like this.

amother

Calendula

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 3:06 pm

amother Babyblue wrote:

How are you working on it? I also want to avoid this dynamic when the girls are older.

amother

Vermilion

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 3:11 pm

I have compassion for older DD.
I was the critical older sister.

I carried pain for years, from my experience when my sister arrived.
I was too young to understand my experience, but I always carried resentment towards my younger sister. Her existence bothered and irritated me.

When I was older and able to explore and understand myself, and why I felt this way…
I realised I felt abandoned and the nurturing attention I used to receive was now diverted to younger sister.

The arrival of a younger sibling can cause a traumatic pocket for an older sibling.
This can affect dynamics.

As an adult I was able to work this through and I now have a very close relationship with my sister.

Offering a compassionate perspective for older sister.

amother

Chestnut

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 3:31 pm

A different perspective:
I don’t know why we need to take ops word for it that dd2 isn’t the annoying type. Especially if op has a similar personality to dd2. Dd2 could easily be a really annoying snow flake goody goody do gooder. One of these wishy washy types that say one thing and hope that you understood that they mean another. Could also be needy and clingy.

We see that she offered to not go to the relative but then is so hurt that older dd took her up on the offer. So don’t offer something you’re not comfortable with. These types of people are really annoying to have a relationship with. You need a degree in psychology to understand them and there is always an eggshell you haven’t seen and once again you’ve “hurt” them.

Older dd definitely doesn’t have exemplary middos. But she’s not either the devil imho