Yes, Pogo, the Jews are the Stupidest People

ChossidMom

Thu, Oct 30 2008, 8:11 am

Who says Jews are Smart?
by Jonathan Rosenblum
Mishpacha
October 29, 2008

YES, POGO, THE JEWS ARE THE STUPIDEST PEOPLE

Arab-Americans overwhelmingly support Senator Barack Obama for president. So do Jewish-Americans. One of these two groups either does not care much about the Arab-Israeli conflict and/or is stupid. My money is on the Jews.

American Jews care less and less about Israel. Over 50% of non-Orthodox Jews under 35 say they would not view the destruction of the State of Israel as a personal tragedy. Israel is not a popular cause on college campuses. Many Jewish students struggle against being identified with Israel, lest it complicate their social lives. In the under 35 cohort, only 54% profess to be comfortable with the idea of a Jewish state.

Other Jews who still find it uncomfortable to disavow concern with Israel have convinced nevertheless themselves that it is in Israel's best interests to be forced back to the 1949 armistice lines. A talkback to a recent Jerusalem Post piece of mine nicely captures the mindset.

Nathan Berkowicz writes: "What do you expect us Jews to do, hold the Palestinians hostage forever? Get your head out of the sand and wake up to the fact that we are going to have to hammer out a peace deal, a real peace deal, if for no other reason but to show ourselves that we are willing to humanely and fairly deal with a problem we created for ourselves."

Berkowicz places the exclusive onus on Israel for the creation of the Palestinian problem – either by virtue of its creation or for having the effrontery to win in 1967. In addition, he blames Israel for the failure to achieve a "real peace deal." The infamous "three No's" of the Arab League in response to the Israeli offer to withdraw from the West Bank after the Six Day War played no role; ditto Arafat's decision to return to open warfare and reject Prime Minister Ehud Barak's offer of well over 90% of the West Bank at Camp David. Finally, Berkowicz wants the Jews of Israel to demonstrate their humanity. He never mentions ensuring their own survival as a desideratum. So goes the "pro-Israel" case for Obama.

THOSE WHO SEE ISRAEL'S SALVATION in its being pushed back to its 1967 borders have good reason to eagerly anticipate an Obama presidency. Obama has described the Palestinian-Israeli conflict as a "sore, . . . infect[ing] all our foreign policy," and placed return to the "peacemaking" of the Clinton years is at the top of his foreign policy agenda.

The express goal of that "peacemaking" will be an Israeli withdrawal to its 1967 "Auschwitz borders." In a June interview with Jerusalem Post editor David Horowitz, Obama said he can understand Israel's desire for "'67 plus" in terms of security buffers, but Israel should consider whether it would be worth the cost in Palestinian antagonism.

The overwhelming majority of Israel's Jews dread a return to the Oslo process, which claimed 1,471 Israeli lives in terrorist attacks, without bringing peace any closer. Oslo made a fixation of process over actual peace, as a pattern of concrete Israeli concessions in return for recycled Palestinian promises took shape. Obama offers more of the same: "Israel's government must make difficult concessions for the peace process to restart," he says.

On security grounds alone, the vast majority of Israelis oppose further territorial withdrawal from the West Bank at present. Earlier withdrawals from southern Lebanon and Gaza resulted in the creation of heavily armed Iranian proxies on Israel's southern and northern borders. Israeli intelligence predicts that Hamas would quickly take over the West Bank as well in the event of an Israeli withdrawal. The near elimination of successful terror attacks from the West Bank since 2002 demonstrates that only Israeli troops and on the ground intelligence gathering capabilities can deter terrorism.

Oslo taught that peace cannot be imposed from the outside and has nothing to do with signed agreements. Only a bottom-up transformation of Palestian society would make peace possible, argues Natan Sharansky, and that transformation has never seemed so far away after the Hamas takeover of Gaza.

Even the "moderate" Mahmoud Abbas recently declared a festive celebration in honor of the leader of the Coastal Road Massacre in which 37 Israelis were murdered. Demonization of Israel and Jews continues unabated in the official Palestinian media. No wonder three-quarters of Palestinians say that reconciliation with Israel is impossible in this generation, even after the signing of a peace agreement and creation of a Palestinian state.

The greatest threat to Israel's existence is a nuclear Iran. By calling for direct American-Iranian negotiations, without offering anything new to the Europeans' approach over the last five years of unconditional negotiations, Obama only grants Ahmadinejad more time and increased internal legitimacy. And by linking any sanctions to Chinese and Russian cooperation, he dooms those efforts from the start. Bottom line: an Obama presidency guarantees a nuclear Iran.

And all this leaves aside dozens of troubling Obama associations. For twenty years, he sat complacently in the church of a pastor – "my spiritual mentor" – who spewed contempt for whites, America, and Israel.

Virtually his whole public career has been closely intertwined with the unrepentant former Weatherman William Ayers.

Another member of Ayers' Hyde Park circle was former PLO official and the current Edward Said Professor at Columbia University, Rashid Khalidi, whom Obama credits with opening his eyes to the plight of Palestinians. He has been heavily funded by the virulently anti-Israel George Soros.

Obama has numerous ties to the Nation of Islam, in particular through Tony Rezko, the convicted, Syrian-born racketeer, who partly paid for Obama's home.

Obama's foreign policy advisors have included: Zbigniew Brzezinski, Jimmy Carter's national security advisor and thirty-year critic of Israel; Samantha Powers, who has called for an end to aid to Israel and the introduction of American forces to protect the Palestinians; and Robert Malley, who has made a career of advancing, together with a former Arafat advisor, a revisionist account in which Israel was responsible for the breakdown of Camp David.

Even the Republicans touted for an Obama cabinet – Chuck Hagel and Richard Lugar – have been among the handful of senators, sometimes the only ones, to consistently oppose sanctions against Iran, Syria, and Saddam Hussein's Iraq. Hagel laments the intimidation on Capitol Hill by the "Jewish lobby."

No doubt the "pro-Israel" Obama supporters have good explanations of why none of these relationships are of concern. After all, why did G-d make Jews so smart if not to prove the emperor is fully-clothed.

avigailmiriam

Thu, Oct 30 2008, 8:15 am

You know, I respect that intelligent, thinking people can look at the evidence and reach a different conclusion than I do.

I believe that many of the people voting for McCain are doing so for sound reasons and I respect their intelligence enough to assume they have thought about the implications of their action.

Frankly, I would appreciate it if people would pay me the same courtesy.

Clarissa

Thu, Oct 30 2008, 8:26 am

Ditto. What she said.

Please listen a moment.

You know I love you, ChossidMom, but can we try not to post things that imply that people here, people we presumably like and respect, are either stupid or self-hating Jews? Maybe some of us have thought things through, like you, and come to a different conclusion. In about ten seconds, I could name ten people I know who are very bright, well-informed not particularly wedded to the Democratic party, and are voting for Obama. One of them is my wonderful, intelligent husband, a registered Independent who took his time coming to this decision. Let's give our friends (and I do presume to count myself as one of yours) some credit, even if we disagree with their decision.

princessleah

Thu, Oct 30 2008, 8:45 am

Let's just remember that both candidates favor a two-state solution, and the Israeli government istself views it as inevitable. McCain is not saying let Israel go re-invade and not give any land to the Palestinians.

I still don't understand why everyone thinks Bush was so great for Israel. During the Bush administration, what happened to Israel/the Middle East?

1) a failed war with Lebanon
2) the election of Hamas as the official government of the Palestinians
3) De-stabilization of Iraq, turning it into a training ground for more terrorists
4) Because of the military being tied up in Iraq, the basic impossibility of having troops available should anything be necessary in Iran.

Why are these things good for Israel?

ChossidMom

Thu, Oct 30 2008, 9:28 am

I love you too, Clarissa. Want me to delete the article? I can, but it's in Mishpacha magazine, so I would have to go to everyone's houses and cut it out there too.

I'm sorry if you or Avigail or anyone feels that I am not being courteous by pasting an article from Mishpacha magazine on imamother.

If anyone would like I will delete the post.

supermama2

Thu, Oct 30 2008, 9:28 am

I don't want to argue politics. I just post to share my opinion and especially my concerns for us as a whole, in return, I do not mind hearing others w/ other views..
now to concerns:
The Fairness Docterin that the Dems. may establish not to create "fairness" but to have an upper hand in power.

Also, I'm going to keep an eye open and maybe read the rise and fall of the 3rd reich. Hitler was a left wing politician, and if I see Obama establishing policies similar to how Hitlers started...consolidating power and the like then well I don't think this would be the best country to be in. I'll keep my ear to the ground and HOPE I'm being stupid LOL

HindaRochel

Thu, Oct 30 2008, 9:34 am

princessleah wrote:

I don't think Bush was great for Israel, I just think Obama will be worse. I felt from the start that Bush was a snake in the grass and would turn on Israel. I think people misjudge the man. He isn't stupid, that is a persona; he is sly, and selfish.

That he is bad for Israel has nothing to do with whether McCain or Obama will be good for Israel. McCain, despite the best attempts by Obama supporters is a different person than Bush. Of course he wants the presidency, he wouldn't be running otherwise, and to do so you need a dose of egotism; you have to believe "I can do this". But he has kept peace when it would cost him popularity because of a greater value he has cherished.

Much of my decision has goes into character; he had an affair, ditched his wife. He admits that was wrong, immoral and a mistake. He supports his ex-wife even now. Both McCain and his ex-wife had been separated for years, and they were both disabled. One partner disabled (during the marriage) is often enough to "disable" a marriage. Two? I'm not saying it is right, but I understand it.

A friend came to him, a constituent, and said (paraphrasing) "help me out here, they are after me. I've done nothing wrong. They are persecuting me"
reluctantly he agreed, stipulating he wouldn't help him if something illegal had been done. So he spoke before the regulators and stated nothing more than (again paraphrasing) "I just want to make sure he was treated fairly." I don't even find that problematic.

He is an individual and should be judged as such; based on character, those from whom he seeks guidance, morally and otherwise, those issues which he holds as important and to which he has shown an allegiance.

Bush is not part of the picture.

Clarissa

Thu, Oct 30 2008, 9:58 am

ChossidMom wrote:

I love you too, Clarissa. Want me to delete the article? I can, but it's in Mishpacha magazine, so I would have to go to everyone's houses and cut it out there too.

I'm sorry if you or Avigail or anyone feels that I am not being courteous by pasting an article from Mishpacha magazine on Imamother.

If anyone would like I will delete the post.

Well, in the first part of this post you seemed to understand why this bothered me, and why similar posts have bothered me -- the implication that Obama-supporters are self-hating, stupid or following the party like robots. Then you said the thing about cutting the article out of every magazine, and the thing about saying it is discourteous to post something from Mishpacha -- both are sarcastic, and show that either you didn't get my point, or you did get it but want to mock it.

I think that everyone needs to be more careful. Calling eachother stupid may create rifts that linger long after this election. Saying Obama supporters don't think means that, the next time we are called upon to offer advice or support, we may feel that it's better to just sit tight, because we're considered stupid, unthinking people. And calling us self-hating Jews means will taint future discussions of issues related to Judaism -- why should opinions matter, if we're considered Jews who don't care about other Jews because of our political choices?

I'll be honest. I don't respect every person here, any more than I respect every person I know in real life. I respect everyone as being people, but I don't love and respect everyone. There are some people that I wouldn't trust to tell me how to put the cap back on the toothpaste tube. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to lie and say I find everyone brilliant and insightful. But I'd never say that every Republican here can't be trusted, cares nothing about the planet, or the poor, or peace, or the well-being of women and children, or the economy. People do care about these things. There are strong differences in the way we think things should be handled.

I can talk until I'm blue in the face. Keep posting articles. Just promise me when the election is over, so is the link and article posting mania.

avigailmiriam

Thu, Oct 30 2008, 10:03 am

Yes, the one that really makes me steam is hearing Obama supporters called self-hating Jews. Yes, I hated Judaism so much I did teshuva and became the only frum person in GENERATIONS in my family. Obviously, I hate my Jewish self. No, really. That's why I've endured family scrutiny, loss of friends and dozens of misunderstanding. Because I'm a self-hating Jew.

chavamom

Thu, Oct 30 2008, 10:15 am

ChossidMom wrote:

I love you too, Clarissa. Want me to delete the article? I can, but it's in Mishpacha magazine, so I would have to go to everyone's houses and cut it out there too.

I'm sorry if you or Avigail or anyone feels that I am not being courteous by pasting an article from Mishpacha magazine on Imamother.

If anyone would like I will delete the post.

Jonathan Rosenblum really lost a lot of respect with me with this article. Not b/c I disagree with him [which I don't], but for reasons that Clarissa outlined above. While I wouldn't expect Rosenblum to support a Democrat, I am surprised that he has bought into the whole "Obama, the satan for Jews and Israel" rhetoric.

As to Mishpacha magazine - I bought over the summer in the mountains and was shocked at some of the gross errors in their articles (one where they repeated as "fact" that Obama was a Muslim). They have lovely articles on Yiddishkeit and are very spotty on things out of that sphere. Consider the source.

Last edited by chavamom on Thu, Oct 30 2008, 11:00 am; edited 2 times in total

entropy

Thu, Oct 30 2008, 10:34 am

I don't think posting this article is out of place. I think it's clear that CM is posting these things from her heart. She sees these articles and she wants to make sure those of us voting Obama are aware of these arguments. Let's not take away her right to call us stupid. (I don't want to give up my respective right!) The article makes a valid point: How can 2 sides of the same conflict support the same candidate?

Possible answer: "resolution of the conflict it in the best interest of both sides."
Or, even: "my money is on the Arabs"

Clarissa

Thu, Oct 30 2008, 10:57 am

Really? We can start calling eachother stupid and self-hating? Cool.

Clarissa

Thu, Oct 30 2008, 10:59 am

Sorry, computer glitch. Double-posted.

Last edited by Clarissa on Thu, Oct 30 2008, 11:03 am; edited 1 time in total

chavamom

Thu, Oct 30 2008, 11:01 am

Clarissa wrote:

Really? We can start calling eachother stupid and self-hating? Cool.

How stupid and self-hating are you to think that's "cool"????

Clarissa

Thu, Oct 30 2008, 11:02 am

chavamom wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

Really? We can start calling eachother stupid and self-hating? Cool.

How stupid and self-hating are you to think that's "cool"????

Obviously, very. But don't just rely on me. Lots of people think I am.

ChossidMom

Thu, Oct 30 2008, 12:52 pm

Clarissa - I totally wasn't mocking. You read me wrong. I just posted a Mishpacha article by Rosenblum. THat's it. I don't reserve the right to call anyone stupid because I'm not calling anyone stupid. (And, for the record I don't think that anyone on this board is stupid. Ok, I'm lying. There may be some people I think are stupid but not because of whom they're voting for).