Not orthodox, not religious?

avigailmiriam

Mon, Dec 01 2008, 11:44 pm

I've seen something on frum blogs and message board which troubles me, and I hope to write a post to clarify the issue. Namely, I see some people believing that not Orthodox means not religious. I frequently have people assume that, because I'm a BT, I was raised totally secular and without religion. I'd like to state that this isn't true.

There are Jews who are religious without being Orthodox. They are not shomer mitzvot, they are not Orthodox, but they are strongly, and committedly Jewish. I grew up in the middle of nowhere and my Conservative parents kept loose kosher, loose Shabbat and were adamantly and proudly Jewish when we were one of the only Jewish families in town. When it would have been much easier to lapse into complacency, they were involved in raising Jewish children in the midst of endless Protestant churchs.

I have never eaten pork. I have never celebrated x-mas. I never doubted, and nor did my siblings, that I was anything other than Jewish. I never doubted that as Jews, we had a special connection to HaShem. My parents, my non-Orthodox, non shomer mitzvot parents, instilled that belief in me. My parents love HaShem and they work to be religious. Their dedication to Judaism is apparent and they are undeniably religious.

Not Orthodox religious Jews exist. The Conservative and Reform movements, even the unaffiliated Jews are not devoid of religiosity, of ahavas yisroel and avodas HaShem. Do I have differences with these movements? Yes, major ones. I do not agree with their policies, practices or Hashkafa. But were it not for my Conservative parents, I would not be frum today. They laid the foundation for my future religious life and they did an admirable job of it. I hope too one day be as committed a Jewish parent as they were.

Please remember that there is religiosity outside the frum velt.

LeahW

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 12:56 am

I know a lot of people like you, and they are also grateful to their Conservative (not so much Reform) parents who instilled a love of Judaism and feeling of belonging. It is a thing for which to be grateful, and while these people may have come from "religious" homes, I think most frum people equate the religiosity more with some foreign religion than with a valid form of frumkeit (which I think you would agree with). Conservative ideas are heretical enough that it's disturbing and difficult for most FFBs to consider their religiosity valid. If I'm not mistaken (you would know to correct me) Conservative Jews believe that Moshe wrote the Torah and it was divinely "inspired"...

Obviously you believe otherwise and that's why you became a BT, but it's hard to feel warmth towards the such a deviation from our mesorah. But I understand the hakaras hatov you must feel toward your parents who kept some spark alive in you long enough for you to discover a more authentic form of Judaism.

ora_43

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 1:09 am

I think most people use the word "religious" to mean "shomer shabbat and kashrut according to halacha/observant of mitzvot." If we were defining "religious" as "someone with a strong connection to Judaism" or even "someone who believes in Hashem and Torah," there would be many "religious" people among the secular and non-observant.

The word could be used both ways (IMO), but the problem is that if you start saying "religious Jew" about people who don't keep most standard mitzvot you're going to cause confusion, and not just here, but among non-Jews as well (I'm not talking about your parents in particular, but about the general idea of using "religious" to refer to "closeness to Judaism" instead of a certain level of observance). So most people refrain from using the word to mean anything other than someone who is orthodox in their external observance.

I don't think it should be taken to mean that women here don't understand the conservative or reform communities.

Marion

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 1:11 am

LeahW wrote:

not mistaken (you would know to correct me) Conservative Jews believe that Moshe wrote the Torah and it was divinely "inspired"...

I will correct you. Conservative Jews believe that Hashem gave Moshe the Torah on Har Sinai. They celebrate that event every Shavuot, same as the rest of the "Orthodox" world. There is a school of thought, way up in the academic echelons of JTS (the Jewish Theological Seminary, the flagship school of the United Synagogue of America which trains Rabbis and Chazzanim) that there is room for biblical criticism at the academic level, but this is most certainly NOT what they teach the school children.

BTW, even in the Orthodox world, I've heard taught that Hashem dictated and Moshe wrote, and that's why it took so long up there. (It was an answer to a 4 year old's question as to why it took 40 days and 40 nights if all Hashem did was hand it over.)

BeershevaBubby

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 1:35 am

avigailmiriam wrote:

There are Jews who are religious without being Orthodox. They are not shomer mitzvot, they are not Orthodox, but they are strongly, and committedly Jewish.

If one is not Shomer Mitzvot but is strongly and committedly Jewish, to most Orthodox people it simply means they were born Jewish and view it as a culture or ethnicity and not as a religion.

avigailmiriam wrote:

I grew up in the middle of nowhere and my Conservative parents kept loose kosher, loose Shabbat and were adamantly and proudly Jewish when we were one of the only Jewish families in town. When it would have been much easier to lapse into complacency, they were involved in raising Jewish children in the midst of endless Protestant churchs.

And unfortunately many Orthodox people feel that doing some but not all with regards to Kashrut or Shabbat is worse than not doing anything at all because often the person knows there is more to it but chooses to ignore it because they often feel it is too restrictive.

avigailmiriam wrote:

I have never eaten pork. I have never celebrated x-mas. I never doubted, and nor did my siblings, that I was anything other than Jewish. I never doubted that as Jews, we had a special connection to HaShem. My parents, my non-Orthodox, non shomer mitzvot parents, instilled that belief in me. My parents love HaShem and they work to be religious. Their dedication to Judaism is apparent and they are undeniably religious.

Not Orthodox religious Jews exist. The Conservative and Reform movements, even the unaffiliated Jews are not devoid of religiosity, of ahavas yisroel and avodas HaShem. Do I have differences with these movements? Yes, major ones. I do not agree with their policies, practices or Hashkafa. But were it not for my Conservative parents, I would not be frum today. They laid the foundation for my future religious life and they did an admirable job of it. I hope too one day be as committed a Jewish parent as they were.

And yet despite the wonderful role models your parents are, you're still 'more religious' than they are. And often it is because the person who becomes Orthodox from a Conservative or Reform background does so because they see something is lacking, despite the foundation of 'religiosity'. Religiosity doesn't automatically equate with spirituality. Neither Ahavas Yisroel nor Tikkum Olam (which is often the 'battle cry' for Avodas Hashem in the Reform movement) means doing things that go against Halacha because we now live in a more accepting, PC world.

ora_43

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 1:56 am

Marion wrote:

Nobody questions that Moshe physically wrote at least some of the Torah.

But your description of the way in which the conservative movement has veered from traditional belief is incomplete (although I agree that LeahW was describing reform, not conservative). The problem is with the movement's beliefs regarding Oral Torah, which is basically that Oral Torah as written in the Mishna and Gemara was man-made. Hence the rulings allowing people to drive to shul on Shabbat, allowing women to serve as rabbis and lead prayers, counting women in a minyan, mixed seating in shul, gay marriage, etc. All things that the rabbis have prohibited since way back when, but that the movement has allowed because they believe that Oral Torah is subject to change. That is the main difference between the conservative movement and traditional Judaism, not the subject of biblical criticism.

chanchy123

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 2:26 am

No where in the Torah does it say that a Jew must be religious. A Jew must be shomer mitsvot, observent of Hashem's commandemnts and a Jew must be obligated to Hashem and Torah and Mitsvot, meaning that we are fulfilling commandments for the sole reason that Hashem said so and that we must do whatever Hashem sais.
An argument over who is religious and who isn't isn't very meaningful, because I'd assume to the outside world a semi-observent Conservative or Reform Jew would be considered religious, perhaps even a committed religious Jew, but this does not mean that this Jew is obeying Hashem's commandments.

Yes, I agree that perserving a sence of being Jewish and I am sure there is a merrit in every mitsva we observe even if we don't observe them all. Conservative Judaism as a reaction to Reform Judaism has paid a great service to Am Yisrael in the US, perserving Jewish identity and tradition.

The argument shouldn't be who is considered religiuos or not, lahavdil, Mormons are also considered religious people, I'd never want to fit in the same catagory as them. The argument should be who follows the path of Hashem. Who fulfils G-d's word. Maybe being Israeli I'm not as sensitive to these catagories and affiliations, but I don't consider myself an Orthodox Jew, necessarily, I would first consider myself someone who accepts that Hashem has given us Torah and Mitsvot and that we are obligated to observe them. I consider myself to be a Jew who is on the right track.

I mean, I can value all the good that Conservative Judaism brought to the world while I have GREAT criticism against it and I will come out against any wrong it does.
The world is not black and white, you can appreciate the good a person or movement does without that taking away of your criticism of all the wrong things this person or movement have done as well.

I can only conclude that Beezrat Hashem all Jews should be zoche to become true shomrei mitsvot, obeserving the commandments of Hashem, and Mashiach will come.

Marion

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 3:20 am

ora_43 wrote:

Hence the rulings allowing people to drive to shul on Shabbat, allowing women to serve as rabbis and lead prayers, counting women in a minyan, mixed seating in shul, gay marriage, etc. All things that the rabbis have prohibited since way back when, but that the movement has allowed because they believe that Oral Torah is subject to change.

Not a single one of those issues is agreed upon by consensus, BTW. There are at least 2 "halachic" rulings (usually mutually exclusive) on every single one of them. The issue also, is not of gay marriage (forbidden), rather of gay ordination. And on that one, there are 3 opinions, all of which have been deemed "acceptable" to the movement. Further, most of the opinions allowing these things are qualified, meaning they were to apply only under certain circumstances. The fact that members of the community have taken them to be blanket allowances doesn't mean that's how they were written.

chanchy123

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 3:27 am

Marion wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

I think this is one of the major problems with the Conservative movement. The huge gap between the community observence and that of the leadership. While the actual movement is quite observent, and at least in Israel, I know many "Light Modern Orthodox" people who would be very comfertable with the Conservative movement's theology, this theology is very rarely applied in practice.

Marion

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 3:38 am

chanchy123 wrote:

Marion wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

Argh, I just lost my big long post! Suffice it to say that a lot of the more traditional, right wing of the Conservative Movement definitely observes the 3 "cardinal" mitzvot that by many definitions would make them Orthodox (kashrut, TH, and Shabbat). But you can't make blanket statements about the members, because they just don't fit into pigeonholes.

The short version of my post was that my sister is a classic example of the gaps between the religious leadership and the congregation. She is studying to be a Rabbi (chaplaincy). Her fiance's congregation (he's a chazzan) is totally egalitarian. But they keep kosher, keep Shabbat, will keep TH (I'm not asking, just she asked some questions that lead me to believe this is the case). So, are they Conservative? Conservadox? Orthodox?

chanchy123

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 3:55 am

Quote:

The short version of my post was that my sister is a classic example of the gaps between the religious leadership and the congregation. She is studying to be a Rabbi (chaplaincy). Her fiance's congregation (he's a chazzan) is totally egalitarian. But they keep kosher, keep Shabbat, will keep TH (I'm not asking, just she asked some questions that lead me to believe this is the case). So, are they Conservative? Conservadox? Orthodox?

Does the label really matter?

Isramom8

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 4:28 am

My father explains that in a right wing frum location, the Conservative community tends to be more to the right as well. Also, the Conservative movement has moved a lot more to the left in the past few decades.

When I was very young, my family belonged to a Conservative shul. There was a pretty much traditional on-time Friday night service, and a more modern one late Friday night. The traditional one (which we went to) was like Orthodox, only the men and women sat together, and a microphone was turned on before Shabbos. The late service featured a choir of men and women and was a social scene.

One Simchas Torah, a woman grabbed a sefer Torah and began to dance with it. She would also put on a yarmulke for davening instaed of a lace doily. Most people said she was crazy. This was the 1970s.

We were raised with kashrus both at home and outside. Everything needed a hechsher, but any kind was okay. We ate tuna and egg salad at general restaurants.

My father used to say that the Conservative movement allowed driving to shul on Shabbos, but he thought it was a weak heter, so we walked. We had Shabbos meals with zemiros and divrei Torah. We weren't allowed to swim in the neighbors' pool on Shabbos. We didn't use electricity. Well, first we did, then we stopped as my parents became more observant. This happened once they sent me to an Orthodox day school. The shul's rabbi also sent his kids to that Orthodox day school. People said he was actually Orthodox. We sat in a sukkah. We lit Chanukah menorahs.

I grew up with a concept of tznius - I wasn't allowed to wear provocative clothing. Normal fitting pants and t-shirts were okay with my parents. I was definitely taught about G-d from the youngest age! I had two "Mitzvah Tree" records, which were the frummest of the frum. We weren't typical Conservative. My Israeli teenage kids say that my description sounds more like what many Israelis call "Dati".

No one in the Conservative community described himself or herself as religious. That meant Orthodox (extreme). They said they were Conservative (normal).

Once a woman demanded from my mother, "What are you - Conservative or Orthodox?" My mother replied, "I'm not a what - I'm a who."

sarahd

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 5:51 am

catonmylap wrote:

Religious - "relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity"

I agree with AvigailMiriam that there are many religious conservative Jews. My own grandparents attended a conservative synagogue but were committed, devoted Jews.

I don't think we should be making such judgment calls. How are we to know how much certain mitzvot are worth compared to others?

It's not a question of the worth of one mitzva over another. It's a question of accepting all mitzvos, including derabbanan, vs. not accepting all mitzvos as emanating from Hashem. In this case, the judgment call should not be difficult.

ora_43

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 6:30 am

catonmylap wrote:

I don't think it's about judgment calls. It's about the common use of the word, which isn't quite the same as the dictionary definition. I don't know about you, but if I told my family or friends (even the non-Jewish ones) about someone who isn't very observant that he's religious, they would say something like, "but then why isn't he wearing one of those little what-do-you-call-thems on his head?" or "really? But I thought you religious people weren't allowed to drive on Saturday/eat in a regular restaurant/etc." So to avoid confusion, I wouldn't use the word "religious" unless I was talking about someone who's almost completely observant (which could be some people affiliated with the conservative movement, but in my neck of the woods probably isn't).

Of course I usually wouldn't get into who's religious or who isn't unless there's a good reason--and if someone asks me straight out, I'd give a more general answer about observance ("he's shomer shabbat," etc).

catonmylap

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 6:35 am

ora_43 wrote:

catonmylap wrote:

In the general sense of the word in general, I would call them religious the way you would call a devout Christian religious. In that sense, there is no question that they are religious.

If you are talking about are they religious Jew, okay I see your point, and you might be misled to think they are frum.....

I would definitely not call them "dati", rather we would call them masorati. But there is no such thing as a Christian who is dati......

But I don't really think AvigailMiriam was trying to start a linguistics battle here. And I think a high percentage of the posters really missed her point.