Not orthodox, not religious?

zaq

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 12:50 pm

hotmama wrote:

[ he wrote (translated) the most widely used Haggadah in the world,

The Maxwell House? Really? Cool!

TheBeinoni

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 12:51 pm

haha no, the Maxwell House one is his rival!

avigailmiriam

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 12:52 pm

shnitzel wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

I don't label myself as Orthodox, but I think most people would consider me religious. Most people outside of those here, of course. That's okay, because I don't care what people call me, as long as they don't call me stupid. So if you want to call me that, keep it to yourself.

I was going to make that dumb old joke about, "...as long as you call me for supper," but that would make me seem dumb, which is a very small step away from stupid.

I personally don't think the label matters whether one calls themselves conservative/reform/chassidish/egalitarian whatever the general "orthodox" consensus the way this sounds and what I have heard growing up is still one who keeps (no matter what they call themselves) kashrus, shabbos and taharas hamishpacha is considered religious (by the general frum world) and they keep in the general guidelines of what is considered acceptable by the typical frum world ie: no driving or lights on shabbos, no treif meat, no s*x during niddah followed by mikvah. Thats what I personally consider religious.

What if that person is an atheist and still keeps mitzvot? What if they believe in the documentary hypothesis and still keep the big three?

zaq

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 12:58 pm

hotmama wrote:

haha no, the Maxwell House one is his rival!

aww, darn. so please enlighten me--which one is it? I had no idea any other Haggaddah came close.

TheBeinoni

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 1:03 pm

the red and yellow one. it's been used in movies lol

zaq

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 1:07 pm

You know, it does look familiar but I can't figure out why. Is there a russian edition?

TheBeinoni

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 1:08 pm

it was published in many languages. sorry people for hijacking your thread!

shnitzel

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 1:09 pm

avigailmiriam wrote:

shnitzel wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

What if that person is an atheist and still keeps mitzvot? What if they believe in the documentary hypothesis and still keep the big three?

We are talking about how orthodox generally define someone as religous or not how Hashem does. Someone can be an atheist and dress as a chossid and only keep chalav yisrael - the frum world will define him as "frum" but I have no idea how G-d sees him. I personally have no idea on what scale Hashem judges us.

zaq

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 1:12 pm

That's it! Somehow we ended up with a Russian-language edition which I kept for the benefit of any Russian emigres at our seder.

zaq

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 1:14 pm

shnitzel wrote:

I personally have no idea on what scale Hashem judges us.

How refreshing to hear you say that. You'd be amazed how many people feel they know exactly how He judges us: the same way they do.

Barbara

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 1:17 pm

hotmama wrote:

the red and yellow one. it's been used in movies lol

Kewl. That's the one we used as kids.

sarahd

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 2:12 pm

We used the old, unrevised edition. But it wasn't by Rabbi Nathan Goldberg, it was by someone named Harry something, if memory doesn't fail me.

beilariva

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 2:39 pm

Were I live in central Israel you could think that many are not religious. I've learnt that most women in my neighbourhood are very committed to kashrut, Shabbat and taharat hamishpacha. They go to shiurim and show great love of Hashem. True they don't dress modest and they would not go under the title of Orthodox but I think that they are religious and they are real.

JRKmommy

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 3:04 pm

Capitalchick wrote:

this whole discussion brings up an interesting question that I've often discussed with friends and family...

What are the requirements for calling ones-self "Orthodox"?

To me, there are only three requirements. The rest is all just detail:
1) Shomer Shabbat
2) Kashrut
3) Taharat Hamishpacha

I'll disagree somewhat. I think that these "big 3" are generally considered to be EVIDENCE that a person is seriously committed to being a Jew who observes halacha (ie. "frum"). This is because these particular mitzvot are only observed by Jews specifically committed to halacha, they require regular effort in one's daily life, and they apply to women as well as men. So, if someone is committed to these 3 things, the assumption is that they take halacha seriously. However, that doesn't mean that these are the ONLY mitzvot that count - if someone clearly disregards other basic mitzvot (stealing, regularly engaging in loshon hara without any attempt to stop, abusing or otherwise mistreating others on a regular basis without demonstrating regret or genuine effort to change, etc.) then that can show a basic disregard for halacha as well and IMHO disqualified someone from being considered truly "frum" despite external appearances.

Re Ruchel, Marion and others:

There is a HUGE regional component at work. Marion - you're around my age and from the same city, so you know that perfectly well that Toronto Conservative shuls 25 yr ago looked an awful lot like MO shuls elsewhere, minus the mechitza. They weren't egalitarian, and the notion of same-relations recognition was unheard of. [For that matter, I should also point out that the Reform movement was also more traditional, akin to the modern US Conservative mov't in many ways. For example, there was opposition to the idea of patrilineal descent.]

I can't remember if your folks are from Montreal as well, but my bubby's shul was the Spanish and Portuguese, so my family's minhag is extreme, progressive left-wing Modern Orthodoxy. Unlike the rest of North America, in Montreal, Orthodox is the default. My mother's parents, who were pro-Stalinist atheists, attended an Orthodox shul on holidays. Where the mainstream is Orthodox, Orthodoxy will be mainstream. You also see this in the Sephardic community - Orthodoxy is seen as "normal" and the standard way of doing things, but individuals may not be fully observant. I believe that you see the same thing in the South African community as well.

By contrast, in the US only around 11% of Jews identify as Orthodox, so it's not the mainstream but rather a self-selected population that has chosen a path of more rigorous observance.

octopus

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 3:20 pm

I didn't read through this whole thread.

but here is my two cents anyway:

I think there is a difference between religious and observant. A person can have a tremendous amount of religious/spiritual feelings but not fulfill the letter of the law. An observant person keeps the law. Can you have an observant person that isn't so religious? absolutely. The best would be religious AND observant.

bandcm

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 5:04 pm

Clarissa wrote:

I think dumb is worse than stupid. Dumb means your critic doesn't even know the correct word.

Clarissa

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 5:15 pm

bandcm wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

I think dumb is worse than stupid. Dumb means your critic doesn't even know the correct word.

True. And goodness knows I haven't been silent for more than a minute and a half for most of my life. But it is used that way. Anyway, why should I give my critics any credit for knowing the difference?

Isramom8

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 5:22 pm

We had a bunch of those yellow haggadahs.

lubaussie

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 9:38 pm

bandcm wrote:

Rabbi Berel Lazar is the head shliach of Russia.

Yeah, I mean *first*

Marion

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 1:26 am

JRKmommy wrote:

I can't remember if your folks are from Montreal as well, but my bubby's shul was the Spanish and Portuguese, so my family's minhag is extreme, progressive left-wing Modern Orthodoxy. Unlike the rest of North America, in Montreal, Orthodox is the default. My mother's parents, who were pro-Stalinist atheists, attended an Orthodox shul on holidays. Where the mainstream is Orthodox, Orthodoxy will be mainstream. You also see this in the Sephardic community - Orthodoxy is seen as "normal" and the standard way of doing things, but individuals may not be fully observant. I believe that you see the same thing in the South African community as well.

Yes, my parents are native Montrealers. The Spanish and Portuguese shul (funny to use a Yiddish word for a Sephardi congregation!) was actually my paternal grandmother's first choice too (she could see it from her bedroom window), but she married an ashkenazi and they attended the Shaar (my mother's family's shul too). My Gran's family actually opened the Spanish (her mother was born a de Sola) as well as the Spanish & Portuguese in Amsterdam and the Shearith Israel in NY.

As an interesting aside, in the last several months there was vote in Toronto where the more traditional of the "Conservative" shuls actually voted to end their membership in the United Synagogue. Beth Emeth was definitely on the list, so they are now unaffiliated, and I believe Beth David and Shaar Shalom as well. The Shaar, in Montreal, gave up their affiliation about 10 years ago now as well.