Not orthodox, not religious?

TheBeinoni

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 1:39 am

But that's the whole point - you can't "check". I mean how can you really check someone's level of kashrut? Do you go through their kitchen cabinets and check everything they've got? Do you watch them cook their food? And shabbat: do you observe someone an entire shabbat including when they go to the bathroom to see how they are keeping shabbat? We can never "check" someone's level. That's between them and Hashem.

Marion

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 1:55 am

That's my point. These 3 things are "b'farhesia"; in public. But you DON'T keep TH in public! You can see if someone goes into a treif restaurant (be dan lekaf zechut that they were desperate for a restroom). You can see if someone gets in their car on Shabbat (be dan lekaf zechut they have a sick child that needs immediate medical attention). I suppose you could spend your time hanging out to see what women duck into the mikveh on a regular basis, but that's both rude and immodest behaviour, unbecoming of a ben or bat Torah.

Isramom8

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 3:31 am

Marion wrote:

I also think it's curious to include TM in the list of what makes one "frum". I often wonder...how would you check?

I know a couple who needed references to foster a child through a frum organization. The references were asked to fill out a questionaire. One question was, "Does this couple keep Shabbos, Kashrus and Taharas Hamishpacha?" The references just checked off everything without probing.

mo5

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 7:17 am

Have not read every post so I could be repeating what someone else has said...

Where I live there are many people who describe themselves as "non practising orthadox". Basically, the shul they belong to (and sometimes only attend 3 times a year) is "orthodox", they keep "traditional" stuff etc. (yes, this is an out-of-USA phenomeona)
I think "observant" is probably a better word then "religious". and some are more observant/less etc.

Personally, I try to avoid the labelling thing.

bandcm

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 8:53 am

Marion wrote:

I also think it's curious to include TM in the list of what makes one "frum". I often wonder...how would you check?

I think that that is the whole point. Nobody can check, and therefore nobody can label people as anything. I think that saying that the Big Three are what makes a person frum is not supposed to mean, "That is how we can know whether or not they are frum" but "If someone does the Big Three, they are frum." Not my business or yours who actually makes the grade.
I don't know whether that came out clear...

JRKmommy

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 9:19 am

We're having Shabbat guests this week where the husband is heavily involved in Shaar Shalom - I'll ask about it. My dad hadn't mentioned it, but I've also said that it wouldn't surprise me. At least someone here understands that I grew up in an "almost" Orthodox shul!

TheBeinoni

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 9:23 am

mo5 wrote:

Where I live there are many people who describe themselves as "non practising orthadox". Basically, the shul they belong to (and sometimes only attend 3 times a year) is "orthodox", they keep "traditional" stuff etc. (yes, this is an out-of-USA phenomeona)
.

This exists plenty in the US! Very similar to how I grew up actually. Many people consider themselves under the branch of MO but don't necessarily keep Shabbat fully, dress 100% tznius, cover hair, keep TH 100% (for instance, may go to mikvah and count the days but sleep in one bed all the time or don't do bedikot). But they would never dream of going to a non-Orthodox shul!

Ruchel

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 10:55 am

Mo5 and hotmama, I agree.

Quote:

my bubby's shul was the Spanish and Portuguese, so my family's minhag is extreme, progressive left-wing Modern Orthodoxy.

I think Ladino for shul is scuola. I think.
How come S/P is always left wing MO by you?

Quote:

Unlike the rest of North America, in Montreal, Orthodox is the default. My mother's parents, who were pro-Stalinist atheists, attended an Orthodox shul on holidays.

I really relate.

JRKmommy

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 11:50 am

I have no idea what other Spanish and Portuguese shuls are like. I just know that this particular one in Montreal is definitely MO, and that the rabbi and rebbetzin promote maximum participation of, and rights for, women, within the confines of Orthodox Judaism. The rebbetzin is part of the council of advisors for JOFA. Here is a synagogue practice grid prepared by the Jewish Orthodox Feminist Alliance, showing how it compares with other similar shuls:

http://www.jofa.org/pdf/Synago.....8.pdf

Ruchel

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 12:24 pm

wow! THANKS for that link. It's fascinating. It's crazy how even in shuls where maybe 1 family is shomer shabbes, or not even, they are much much more "conservative" (no pun intended) in France.

For example, I don't see a woman giving a dvar Torah at shul, especially from the bima. In fact they don't want women there.
I can't imagine the Torah passed in the woman side, but the women definitely touch it (some guys cringe).
Never heard of prayer for agunot, or mother's name used except for the sick.
Birkat hagomel, well when I went to dd's naming no one told me to recite anything, but dh told me the guys said a prayer for my health.
Never heard of women reading megilot. And even in the lightest places I've been (think students oratory, etc) I don't think they would let a woman read for Purim at all.
Women wearing tallit is a criterion of non Orthodox shul here.

Some things though seemed totally mainstream for me, like bat mitzvas in announcements. Or women singing too. Women allowed in the sukka. Men and women preparing and tidying after kiddush. Naming/simchat bat allowed in shul (although it's still a new practice). My dd was the first one bh. My husband brought her to the bima (he told me this may not be ok in a frummer shul). Women can be treasurer or whatever in the committee. Coed classes except Gemara (not allowed to women in most settings).

hannah95

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 11:34 pm

I don't think I have ever been to an orthodox schul here in France where women go up to the bima, touch the Torah, say a prayer out loud, reading megila, wearing talit or anything like that ! As for gomel, I've seen it done by them men (on the men part of the synagogue) for a woman who was in the women part. As for the soucca, we have a community succa with family tables. It's done that the women will sit on one side of the table, and the men on the other side. There is a men soucca and a women soucca for singles. I have never ever heard a woman sing at schul !! That would be a big no-no for me.
The Torah is shown to the women through the curtain or the glass that separates them from the men, but that's it. The women don't say names during the prayer for the sick, ask their husband to do so.

What I find annoying in my schul is that they keep the fridges in the room for women. So we are all davening, and man walks in to get the kiddush out, and disturbs everyone ! I would never go in the man part to get anything, even a siddour .. But I guess we don't count as mynian so it's kind of less important to disturb us, but it still makes me mad ...

Classes are not mixed, except for the younger crowd, and these are classes to help the youth come back to Torah so they try to make it as light as possible. Girls and boys are not sitting together though.

Ruchel

Fri, Dec 05 2008, 8:42 am

I'm thinking it may be more lenient out of town and in youth settings.
We're putting up a file for an apt in Créteil and there's a shul in the same building (!) and it has separate entrances for guys & gals! I had never seen that (in France).