Not orthodox, not religious?

greenfire

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 11:08 am

religion devoid of spirituality means zilch ...

following a rote w/o meaning is moot ...

being strong in your convictions to judiasm as op says has a stronger lifetime lesson than outward "religiousity" w/o any strong connection to god ...

poemmom

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 11:22 am

Marion wrote:

Ruchel, you're using the European model, which I understand is what you know. But that's NOT the same as the American model. It's not even the same as the Canadian or British model. You're (innocently enough) comparing apples and bananas.

???
Sounds like a lot of the MO that live near me, and I'm in New Jersey!

gryp

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 11:29 am

Being a "Yehudi Ba'Lev" is better than nothing, but the actual act of fulfilling Torah and Mitzvos is what counts, as far as Jewish spirituality is concerned.
We know that the mitzvah itself, or the learning Torah itself, is what actually binds the Jew to
G-d. ("Mitzvah" is from the lashon of "Tzavsa V'Chibur.")

And let's not forget that the Jews who don't know about keeping Torah and Mitzvos are also full of Mitzvos, like a pomegranate is of seeds.

zaq

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 12:09 pm

greenfire wrote:

religion devoid of spirituality means zilch ...

I wouldn't go that far. It isn't ideal, but "mitoch shelo lishmoh yavo lish'moh". Thank G-d in our religion, maaseh is the thing, and not faith. we don't have to prove that we believe anything, unlike certain forms of christianity in which YA GOTTA BELIEVE!!!!!!DO YOU BELIIIIEEEEEVE????? IF YOU DON"T BELIEVE YOU WILL BURN!!!!!BELIEVE AND BE SAAAAAVED!

What if I'm not sure I believe? What if I don't really believe at all, but I keep the mitzvos to honor my ancestors who gave up their lives because they did believe? Or because I don't really believe but I hope my children will?

So long as I obey the commandments, I'm doing my part. Davening without kavvana (intent) I agree seems pretty pointless, though even so there may be value in participating in tefillah betzibbur (communal prayer) just to demonstrate that you're a part of the community. There is value to keeping mitzvot even if you're not transported in a spiritual haze. If while I check my rice for bugs I'm reviewing my stock portfolio--for that matter, if while I check my rice for bugs I'm fuming at the necessity of doing so, rather than chortling with glee that Hashem thought me so special that he gave me this plum assignment--I'm still keeping the commandment. If I'm a servant of Hashem, then I do what He tells me. It's lovely if I find soul-satisfying meaning in doing so, but the bottom line is, did I do what He told me or not? if I did, I'm a satisfactory servant. Maybe not an outstanding one, but a satisfactory one.

Last edited by zaq on Tue, Dec 02 2008, 12:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

Fox

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 12:16 pm

My business brings me into contact with a large number of Reform and Conservative congregations, so I feel like I get a good overview of what actually goes on (as opposed to the stated policies of each group). Keep in mind that I work in the computer world, which focuses on demographics and numbers rather than philosophies or goals. That said, here are a few thoughts:

Decline of Conservative Movement
The Conservative movement in the U.S. is dying. In fact, I often say privately that I feel like a hospice worker when I deal with Conservative congregations. The number of congregations dwindles significantly each year as a result of outright closings and mergers with other synagogues. The movement has not been successful in appealing to younger Jews, who increasingly do not affiliate with a synagogue, affiliate with a Reform congregation, or become frum.

Even larger, stronger congreations are contracting in various ways. For example, the association of Conservative synagogue executive directors has now essentially merged with the Reform group because they didn't have enough members. The combined group recently had their annual convention in Atlanta, and kosher food was not served.

Changes Among Reform Congregations
Reform congregations are somewhat stronger but are facing their own problems. Smaller congregations are finding it tough to hang on, and many are struggling, letting employees go, and otherwise cutting back expenses in more drastic ways than in the past. A development officer at a huge "Temple" in the Midwest with 3,000+ members recently confided to me that her congregation is having increasing trouble getting people to commit to memberships, giving bequests, and otherwise raising money. They are dipping into their capital to keep their magnificent building going.

Now, how does that square with press releases from the URJ stating that membership is increasing each year? I'll let you in on a little secret: many Reform congregations run very successful daycare and preschool operations and require families to "join" the Temple in order to send their child/ren. So people join and pay membership dues while their kids are small, but as soon as they age out of daycare/preschool, they let their memberships lapse.

Unlike the Conservative movement, which still has most of its congregations near major metropolitan areas, Reform congregations have branched out all over. However, this means that a very significant proportion are very small -- micro-shuls, perhaps. I was recently in contact with one congregation that has 12 official members; another that is actually near my home has 41 official members. Again, many of these small groups are living on bequests from previous generations or by renting their facilities to other groups.

Watching History Happen
For those of you who've been around a while, you may remember the Gordon and Horowitz study released in the 90s and updated in 2001 entitled, "Will Your Grandchildren Be Jewish?" It confirmed and refined the results previously reached by E. Bergman at Harvard. Although you can read the details on Aish.com, the bottom line can be summarized in one sentence:

Quote:

Within three generations there will be almost no trace of young American Jews who are currently not being raised in Orthodox homes with a complete Jewish Day School education.

I am reminded of this every single day at work when I hear the increasingly desperate actions being taken by both Conservative and Reform congregations to reverse their decline.

We learn in the Tehillim by Asaph that transmitting the mesorah must include both emunah and mitzvos. One without the other is inadequate. While a handful of individuals within the Conservative and Reform movements have been able to do so, the movements as a whole have not been able to effectively transmit Torah to the next generation. However, there is a valuable lesson we should heed: just as these movements discovered that teaching emunah without mitzvos was not successful, we should keep in mind daily that teaching mitzvos without emunah is equally inadequate.

greenfire

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 12:24 pm

the problem zaq I have with what you said - is that you assume everyone who does their religious convictions on the outside also follows them on the inside ... therefore I stand by my conviction - religion devoid of spirituality is nada ... one can look the part & play the part - but do they feel & do ... not to mention that people take religion and do not realize there are many avenues of the same mitzva - they tend to focus on their own ways yet consider anyone who does things different as not following religion ...

Fox

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 12:28 pm

greenfire wrote:

they tend to focus on their own ways yet consider anyone who does things different as not following religion ...

Like the old saying, "Anyone who is more observant than I am is a zealot, and anyone who is less observant is an apikorus."

HindaRochel

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 12:33 pm

Words words words words.
I've had people tell me, "s/he's Orthodox. Well not as Orthodox as you. I think s/he does XYZ or doesn't do XYZ." Where what ever XYZ is would be considerde rigueur/not acceptable by most Orthodox Jews, so there is that from the other end.

Words take on personal meaning as well as generally accepted meaning which sometimes isn't the dictionary meaning.

Most people I know who are not frum describe themselves as spiritual rather than religious. Religious implies a more strict adherence than does spiritual, and very few non-frum people that I know of have self-described as religious.

I've never thought of non-frum people as lacking any spiritual connection to Torah and Judaism. And I do know there are different levels of adherence even among the various groups. I have simply thought of them as "not shomer mitzvot".

I know quite a few people who are deeply committed as Jews to Israel and G-d but don't believe in Torah m'Sinai for instance. I don't quite understand it to tell the truth (which is why I became frum) and maybe that has something to do with my world view.

Religious to me means keeping the Torah. It doesn't have anything to do with the spiritual nature of a person, how deeply they are or aren't connected to Israel and the Jewish people. It just mean they don't view taryag mitzvot in the same vein as I do; gifts from G-d expressed in the Oral and Written law.

Do you feel that there are non-frum who think of themselves as religious and are insulted by being called non-religious?

zaq

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 12:40 pm

greenfire wrote:

the problem zaq I have with what you said - is that you assume everyone who does their religious convictions on the outside also follows them on the inside ...

I'm neither so naive nor so generous-spirited. I'm sure plenty of people are just going thru the motions by rote, but I'm saying there is value in going thru the motions. it's not great, but it's better than nothing, unless they're deliberately putting on a show to make people believe they're holy in order to take advantage of the community, such as get free yeshiva tuition for their kids. That's not going thru the motions, that's fraud, which is a whole different thing.

greenfire wrote:

one can look the part & play the part - but do they feel & do ...

what they feel is their business, not anyone else's. Again, if someone is dressing like a frum Jew in order to deceive the community, while actually having no intention of keeping the mitzvot, then that's fraud, exactly like the nonjewish Russians who come to the US and claimed to be jewish to take advantage of jewish community aid to Russian jews.

zaq

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 12:44 pm

Quote:

Within three generations there will be almost no trace of young American Jews who are currently not being raised in Orthodox homes with a complete Jewish Day School education.

For this they needed a Harvard study? I could have told you as much when I was 18 years old and noticed that every person I met who identified himself as jewish--observant or not--had Orthodox grandparents or great-grandparents. Every single one, except of course the converts.

DefyGravity

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 12:46 pm

For most people, the terms "religious" and "orthodox" are synonymous.

greenfire

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 12:52 pm

it's not about deception ... because to them they are religious ... but there are 613 mitzvos - some of which do not apply today ... some which only apply to one gender ... not everybody keeps all of their own mitzvos - because nobody is perfect ...

so let us say in reference to the non-religious - maybe they keep some mitzvos that you are unaware of - simply because people are so bent on looking at religion on the outside vs what people do for themselves ...

do you think that a person lighting shabbos candles and driving to shul is void of religion - I think not !!!

and a person who walks to shul religious yet void of spirituality ... so is he really "orthodox" (oooh I just hate that word)

Last edited by greenfire on Tue, Dec 02 2008, 7:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

Fox

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 1:15 pm

zaq wrote:

Quote:

Within three generations there will be almost no trace of young American Jews who are currently not being raised in Orthodox homes with a complete Jewish Day School education.

Unfortunately, yes. I'm personally in a unique situation of being able to see actual data from a variety of congregations, but otherwise we're at the mercy of the self-serving statistics generated within various organizations. And remember, people in the Conservative and Reform movements were not only surprised but in many cases outraged by the outcomes.

Barbara

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 2:19 pm

Fox wrote:

zaq wrote:

Quote:

Within three generations there will be almost no trace of young American Jews who are currently not being raised in Orthodox homes with a complete Jewish Day School education.

The 1990 survey re intermarriage has been thoroughly discredited. See http://www.jewishsf.com/conten......html

I couldn't find what I really wanted to, though. I recall reading a study that showed that the vast, vast majority of kids who receive *any* Jewish education, including after-school *Hebrew School* or *Sunday School* do not intermarry. However (and again this is IIRC), the majority of kids who do not receive any Jewish education do intermarry. The lowest intermarriage rates exist amongst kids who attend day schools through high school, with a higher (but still low) rate for those who attend through 8th grade, and an again higher rate for supplemental school kids (I want to say that the INmarriage rate for them is over 80%, but I just can't find it quickly). Also IIRC Jewish camping significantly lowered intermarriage rates, which is a reason why both Reform and Conservative congregations often provide scholarships and other incentives.

Unquestionably, though, the Conservative movement is having trouble defining itself and its direction. Remember that Conservative is an outgrowth of Reform, not Orthodox, formed because some people believed that Reform had gone too far (eg, not observing kashrut). With the Reform movement moving to the right of late, Conservative doesn't know where to go. There's also the cognitive dissonance of the difference between the observant leadership and membership, and the majority who are not observant. Remember, though, that its not all that different from much of Orthodoxy in the 1950s and 60s, when a lot of people considered themselves Orthodox although they weren't shomer Shabbat (and in fact often worked on Shabbat). There was even a point in time when people thought that Orthodox Judaism would die out. So don't count the Conservatives out yet.

Mama Bear

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 5:43 pm

avigayilmiriam, being 'religious' widely means following halachic Judaism. It doesnt mean 'feeling jewish pride' or being traditional. Taht's why being non-orthodox is synonymous with non religious; unless those non-orth people follow mainstream halacha on at least th main tenents of Judaism.

Clarissa

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 5:50 pm

So where's the cutoff? If you regularly attend shul? Attend a certain kind of shul? I know people who go weekly to non-Orthodox shuls, are they religious? If they drive to shul for every Shabbat, are they not religious? Is covering hair or not the issue? Kashrut? Turning lights on and off on Shabbat?

Can somebody who feels solidly behind their opinion tell me how you define a religious Jew?

Mama Bear

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 6:09 pm

If you are mechalel shabbos then no, youre not religious! if you keep shabbos, kashrus and taharas hamishpacha, even if you (as a woman) never set foot in shul, youre religious. for a man there are a few other things that make you 'religious' like putting on tefillin and davening daily - even if you dont mamish make it to minyan, wearing a kippah etc. a woman who keeps shabbos and kashrus and goes to mikvah, but doesnt cover her hair, is definitely religious!

Clarissa

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 6:12 pm

What specific acts make one mechalel Shabbat?

bandcm

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 6:13 pm

Sorry, Clarissa, it's me answering. You can scroll on by if you like.
The definition of religious is usually accepted as keeping kashrut, Shabbat, and Taharat Hamishpacha. Not rudimentary kashrut, some form of Shabbat, or whatever, but keeping the laws in their entirety. Chumros not necessary.

About the original discussion, I actually try to refrain from ever using the words Orthodox, Reform or Conservative (or Reconstuctionist, Masorti, or what have you.) This is because the Lubavitcher Rebbe taught us that these divisions do not actually exist according to Judaism. We are all Jews (if we were born of Jewish mothers or converted according to Halacha). Some of us are more observant, some are less. Some of us are more learned, others are less so. Some of us are more spiritual, while others are less so. None of us are better than others.

avigailmiriam

Tue, Dec 02 2008, 6:15 pm

Clarissa wrote:

What specific acts make one mechalel Shabbat?

Presumably violating any one of the melachot. But there are obviously areas of disagreement, as we can see from the recent TIVO thread.