Not orthodox, not religious?

Ruchel

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 9:50 am

Raisin wrote:

cassandra wrote:

I think not holding by eruvs makes you superreligious.

there are eruvs and eruvs. In one part of london there is a controversial eruv which many rabbanim hold to be not adequate. So people who use it are not given aliyos in certain shuls. When they built another eruv in another part of London they made sure that ALL rabbanim gave their hechsher.

There are people who don't give aliot to non shomer shabbes Jews??

We would never have minyan if we only counted the fully shomer shabbes....

Isramom8

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 10:07 am

Ruchel wrote:

Quote:

you have to park around the block

If only! I hate going/coming back from shul, and seeing all the traditional in their nice car and me in the rain...

One dati leumi shul in my city welcomes chilonim to have their bar mitzvahs there, and not everyone parks around the block - some park right in front of the shul.

Ruchel

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 10:21 am

Isramom8 wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Quote:

you have to park around the block

If only! I hate going/coming back from shul, and seeing all the traditional in their nice car and me in the rain...

One dati leumi shul in my city welcomes chilonim to have their bar mitzvahs there, and not everyone parks around the block - some park right in front of the shul.

at least it's not every week.

But I don't complain. I'm happy traditional people often feel a strong link, and I'm happy we can have minian once or even twice on shabbes.

Isramom8

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 10:28 am

I think it's sort of funny and weird, but I'm generally supportive of the shul allowing it. The chiloni families seem so happy to have the opportunity to make their bar mitzvahs there.

A woman at the supermarket said she saw me on Shabbat, but she was in her car and was too embarrassed to greet me. I told her that I would have liked to say "Shabbat Shalom". She said, "Okay, next time I'll pull over and stop my car so that we can chat." Uh-oh... Confused

Starhavah

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 10:57 am

Marion wrote:

Not true. For various reason we interviewed with a Solomon Schechter elementary (the Conservative movement's day school) school for DD. They made a point of saying to us that they "do not teach Torah Mi Sinai". Exact words of the director of admissions are in quotes.

They teach that God dictated the Torah to Moshe on Har Sinai (ie it is divinely inspired).

BTW, DD did not go there, of course. Since we wanted her to know the truth, that Torah is Mi Sinai.

shnitzel

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 11:08 am

Starhavah wrote:

Marion wrote:

There are also frum/religous/orthodox/whatever you want to call it bible critics who bring up the same point - in YU you need to take Bible classes that often include bible critics (some are outright kefirah some are not). So I don't think that's the difference between religous or not DH's cousin is married to a woman studying in JTS and she is frum - shomer shabbos, kashrus, taharas hamishpacha - she even covers her hair! But I think that is what defines religous (not the covering hair part). Not all their students are religous though. So you can belong to the conservative movent and still be frum, it is just very rare.

zaq

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 11:33 am

Starhavah wrote:

They teach that God dictated the Torah to Moshe on Har Sinai (ie it is divinely inspired).

Funny...that's what they teach in my kids' agudah-affiliated yeshivah: that G-d dictated the Torah word for word to Moshe on Har Sinai. That doesn't spell "divinely inspired" to me--that spells Torah miSinai. In fact I recall a teacher who, playing devil's advocate, proposed that the neviim (prophets) must have been greater than moshe since hashem trusted them to convey His message in their own words, but Moshe had to be dictated to word for word. (Ahem, ahem, my ds came back with the answer that the most critical message is dictated word-for-word to the top aide; the gist of lesser messages can be given to lesser assistants to compose as they will.)

Barbara

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 11:51 am

zaq wrote:

Starhavah wrote:

They teach that God dictated the Torah to Moshe on Har Sinai (ie it is divinely inspired).

AIUI, the difference between the Conservative and Otrthodox positions on the Written Torah is subtle. Orthodox believe that the Written Torah was either dictated or given directly by Hashem. Conservative believe that Written Torah was given by HaShem, but not dictated word for word (but are apparently open to analysis that suggests Divine inspiration rather than Divine transmission). The big difference is with respect to Oral Torah, which Orthodox believe was also given directly by Hashem, but Conservative believe was merely Divinely inspired (ie, with human input). Its because of the latter that the Conservative movement feels that it is able to make its decisions in a manner and substance that are sometimes contrary to Orthodoxy.

Barbara

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 12:25 pm

Clarissa wrote:

So now we're talking about what makes someone Orthodox? Because the only religious Jews are Orthodox Jews? Thanks for letting me know.

In this case, I really think its simply conversation drift, rather than a suggestion that only Orthodox can be *religious*

As to the question ... there's no trademark in the term *Orthodox* and no police who are going to shoot people who claim to be Orthodox but aren't, eg, shomer Shabbat. So anyone can call herself *Orthodox* who wants. Me, I figure if you want to call yourself Orthodox, enjoy. Its just a word.

Clarissa

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 12:29 pm

I don't label myself as Orthodox, but I think most people would consider me religious. Most people outside of those here, of course. That's okay, because I don't care what people call me, as long as they don't call me stupid. So if you want to call me that, keep it to yourself.

I was going to make that dumb old joke about, "...as long as you call me for supper," but that would make me seem dumb, which is a very small step away from stupid.

Ruchel

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 12:31 pm

Clarissa wrote:

So now we're talking about what makes someone Orthodox? Because the only religious Jews are Orthodox Jews? Thanks for letting me know.

America seems to be different, but around me yes, someone religious is Orthodox, with the exception of those who wanted an Orthodox conversion and were refused, or discouraged, and practice like they would with an Orthodox conversion but in a "liberal" (reform to conservative, depending on the issues) setting.

In my husband's city, the liberal 'rabbi' drove on shabbes. I think it sets the tone for the others...
Being liberal is a statement of anti traditionalism. It's not just being not frum, or not fully frum, or whatever. If it was the case, the traditional people would all find a liberal shul to drive to on shabbes, instead of Orthodox, right? and they don't. Because it's a farce.

With the exception of people attending because they want a mixed service or being a female rabbi, even many liberal are fully non believers and not taking themselves seriously at all. I can tell you, few women have any interest in wearing a tallit or kippa at a regular service. For a bat mitzva or another event, they will. But it's not even about that. It's more a social scene than anything...

Many liberal shul attenders are not even Jewish to begin with, or their children.

A woman told me, I think she's on this board, that the kiddush at the shul of 'rabbi' Pauline Bebe was mixed dairy and meat.

Now, there are 4 "massorti" shuls in France, one having a mechitza. That is much closer to frumkeit (for the % who practices really), even though for them many rules are just traditions, etc. But their rabbis do not drive on shabbes.

I am not familiar, out of Imamother, with shomer shabbes & kashrus people calling themselves not Orthodox. It's the "acknowledged" thing, so every one wants to be at least "not unOrthodox", except those who oppose the traditional ways.

Capitalchick

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 12:33 pm

Clarissa wrote:

So now we're talking about what makes someone Orthodox? Because the only religious Jews are Orthodox Jews? Thanks for letting me know.

No no...I didn't mean to imply that at all. I think I'm actually saying quite the opposite. There seems to be a great sense, nowadays, that if you don't send your kid to a certain school, wear your skirt a certain length, wear opaque white stockings, etc. etc. you're not "orthodox". I was trying to argue against that mentality.

I wasn't commenting on the issue of what makes a person "religious". If I had to answer that, I would say that a "religious" person is one who truly believes in God and who acts accordingly. Notice that I'm not saying exactly HOW they act...but just that they believe in God and therefore live their lives in a particular way because of that belief.

shnitzel

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 12:38 pm

Clarissa wrote:

I personally don't think the label matters whether one calls themselves conservative/reform/chassidish/egalitarian whatever the general "orthodox" consensus the way this sounds and what I have heard growing up is still one who keeps (no matter what they call themselves) kashrus, shabbos and taharas hamishpacha is considered religious (by the general frum world) and they keep in the general guidelines of what is considered acceptable by the typical frum world ie: no driving or lights on shabbos, no treif meat, no s*x during niddah followed by mikvah. Thats what I personally consider religious.

TheBeinoni

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 12:40 pm

Marion wrote:

LeahW wrote:

not mistaken (you would know to correct me) Conservative Jews believe that Moshe wrote the Torah and it was divinely "inspired"...

I will correct you. Conservative Jews believe that Hashem gave Moshe the Torah on Har Sinai. They celebrate that event every Shavuot, same as the rest of the "Orthodox" world. There is a school of thought, way up in the academic echelons of JTS (the Jewish Theological Seminary, the flagship school of the United Synagogue of America which trains Rabbis and Chazzanim) that there is room for biblical criticism at the academic level, but this is most certainly NOT what they teach the school children.

BTW, even in the Orthodox world, I've heard taught that Hashem dictated and Moshe wrote, and that's why it took so long up there. (It was an answer to a 4 year old's question as to why it took 40 days and 40 nights if all Hashem did was hand it over.)

I didn't read all the pages in between so I apologize if I'm repeating something someone said down the line. My grandfather was a high up guy in JTS, he wrote (translated) the most widely used Haggadah in the world, so many people, even here on this frum site, have seen his work. My father told me (did not teach me this as OUR belief but informed me what some do believe in the Conservative movement) that there is a Conservative theory that the Torah was written by PEOPLE, not dictated by Hashem and transcribed by Moshe. Also that we received the 10 Commandments from Sinai, but nothing else. The rest is man made. When I was very young I went to a Conservative Hebrew school, and we were never taught this theory. However, of course you wouldn't teach this to young children - it's a complicated concept. It still, though, is a widely accepted "belief" in the Conservative movement among those learned Conservative Jews (not talking about Jews who just attend Conservative shul but do not do much learning).

zaq

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 12:48 pm

Capitalchick wrote:

I would say that a "religious" person is one who truly believes in God and who acts accordingly. Notice that I'm not saying exactly HOW they act...but just that they believe in God and therefore live their lives in a particular way because of that belief.

Not a half bad definition, really, though in a more generic sense I'd amend it to "one who believes in a deity and acts accordingly". Some people I know are very religious Druids.