is 2 years nursing clean for real?

gold21

Sat, Jun 06 2009, 7:26 pm

1. I think its very possible that some of the women who say they nurse clean might really "minipill-clean", as the minipill can sometimes prevent ovulation. Since the woman is nursing and taking the minipill at the same time, its hard to differentiate what is causing ammenorhea.

2. I don't think its healthy to try to replicate what happened in the times of the Torah. It was a totally different era. Our girls don't marry at 3 yrs old, like Rivka Imeinu did. Our husbands don't marry multiple wives/concubines. Our lives are different. Let's follow halacha without feeling any desire to nurse exclusively for two years, at the expense of a child's health and his need for some solid food, because that's what might have been the norm many years ago. Our bodies have changed, our milk has most likely changed, our babies have changed.

mommalah

Sat, Jun 06 2009, 8:09 pm

amother wrote:

I don't think people nurse clean for 2 years unless they are in their late 30's and 40's. And even at that age it only happens because they are less fertile altogether. I think people lie about nursing clean because they don't want to admit they use birth control. I wouldn't let people know what I do/don't do either way. But I HATE when people say they nurse clean for long periods of time. I have a friend who always nurses and between 3 and 4 she has a 4.5 year break. She tells everyone she nurses clean but I don't buy it. Of course I would never confront her about it! I say, why lie? Just dont' say anything!!!

What you think is irrelevant. The fact is that people, younger and older, can nurse clean for long periods of time. I know I did and I'm in my late 20's. And you think older women can nurse clean only because they are less fertile? Are you basing this on anything scientific? I also think you might be spending a little too much time wondering about your friends cycles... Rolling Eyes

mommalah

Sat, Jun 06 2009, 8:21 pm

gold21 wrote:

1. I think its very possible that some of the women who say they nurse clean might really "minipill-clean", as the minipill can sometimes prevent ovulation. Since the woman is nursing and taking the minipill at the same time, its hard to differentiate what is causing ammenorhea.

2. I don't think its healthy to try to replicate what happened in the times of the Torah. It was a totally different era. Our girls don't marry at 3 yrs old, like Rivka Imeinu did. Our husbands don't marry multiple wives/concubines. Our lives are different. [b]Let's follow halacha without feeling any desire to nurse exclusively for two years, at the expense of a child's health and his need for some solid food, because that's what might have been the norm many years ago. Our bodies have changed, our milk has most likely changed, our babies have changed.

[/b]

You don't need to deprive a child of solid food in order to nurse clean. That is one serious misconception that you have. A child doesn't really have a legitimate nutritional need for soilds prior to the age of 1. People are very misinformed in this regard. Parents give solids early for all sorts of ridiculous and sometimes selfish motivations. You know it gets the kid to sleep through the night....People also fear that their child will be delayed in learning the mechanics of chewing and swallowing if they don't start soon...The only nutritional need a child has that can't be gotten from breastmilk past 6 months (and even this is not a given) is the need for iron. My dd didn't get solids until she was 10 months old and she is doing quite well. If anything she is at a great advantage nutritionally because I delayed solids. (she didn't really have too much interest anyway until then). And I should add that most women in the world likely experience lactational amennorhea as most lactating women (in the non-Western world) sleep and nurse their babies on demand.
[b]

guesswho

Sat, Jun 06 2009, 9:12 pm

From the posts I've read here I see that nursing without menstruating depends on the baby's sleeping pattern. Lets say a 2 month old sleeps from 11 pm to 5 am. giving the mother a very slim chance to practice lactational Amenorrhea. Any advice in such a situation? (I know someone irl to whom it happened. She used to set an alarm clock to wake her up after 5 hours, and nurse the baby.)
HY suggested to let the baby suckle, but the baby's suckling ususualy bring on a letdown. If the baby is content and sleeping, there is a chance that the baby will be overfed from the milk that is coming in.

momomany

Sat, Jun 06 2009, 11:20 pm

I never planned my nursing schedule based on my desire to nurse clean. I nursed whenever the baby wanted & voila, LA happened. I guess I was one of the lucky ones. Funny thing is, my milk supply is lousy & I needed to supplement some & I offered solids relatively early, because my supply wasn't adequate - BUT -, I nursed according to my babies' needs and that was enough to keep my hormones where they needed to be to prevent a period for about 2 years. It so happened that whether I liked it or not, my babies wanted to nurse for much of the day & night & the easiest way for me was to keep them in my bed with the breastaurant open during the night & nurse often during the day. Why is is so difficult to believe that all womens bodies have different levels of hormones & what works for one to cause LA might not work for another. I started my period when I was 17 - is that hard to believe too? Its certainly not usual. Why would anyone start assuming someone was using bc because their body was doing what anothers couldn't? Strange.

amother

Sun, Jun 07 2009, 12:28 am

My baby is 14 months; I'm on the minipill and nursing clean. During the day, when she's at the babysitter, I go for 7 hours without nursing her and at night many times, I'll go 12 hours without nursing her. Yet, I'm still nursing clean k'h.
My doctor told me that the minipill does not affect your period. Even if it prevents ovulation, you can still get your period without ovulating. So I guess my body is just very sensitive to the nursing...?

amother

Sun, Jun 07 2009, 4:53 am

amother wrote:

and what abput the people that arnt lying? what o you care, let them say what they want and so they are nursing clean. just by the way alot of mini pills you get your period! so...................

Hashem_Yaazor

Mon, Jun 08 2009, 8:42 am

Isramom8 wrote:

Question: I read that "complete nursing" (frequent feedings, no bottles or pacifiers, no solid food, no formula or water) prevents pregnancy for only six months, and that after that you can get pregnant even if you didn't have a period. Is there any truth to that timetable of six months?

What it means is that the chance of getting pregnant is higher than 2%...before 6 months, assuming all the other conditions are filled, 98% of women don't get pregnant.

Most women don't get pregnant as soon as they hit 6 months. The chance is higher, but one can still nurse without ovulating for quite a while. But, again, no guarantees.

Hashem_Yaazor

Mon, Jun 08 2009, 8:47 am

guesswho wrote:

If the baby is content and sleeping, there is a chance that the baby will be overfed from the milk that is coming in.

Do you have any source for this?
Suckling does not always bring on letdown, especially past the first 3 months.
And babies turn their heads away if they are not interested in swallowing milk brought on by letdown. Breastfed babies don't have obesity problems like bottlefed babies, partially because it's much harder to overfeed a baby who nurses.

Hashem_Yaazor

Mon, Jun 08 2009, 8:50 am

FTR, I am 100% certain that there are women (in their 20's!) who have a few years' gap in between children due to nursing.
Just because someone might not have the same experience, that doesn't mean others are lying.
One person I know nursed clean for 20 months -- those children are 2.5 years apart. How do I know? Well, she didn't realize she was pregnant because she hadn't had a period Wink

And no, she was not on the minipill...
Other people I know have anovulatory menstruation for a while while nursing...when they stop nursing "clean", they still are not fertile enough to get pregnant.

I see no cover up or lying -- nor any need to...

amother

Mon, Jun 08 2009, 9:03 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

guesswho wrote:

If the baby is content and sleeping, there is a chance that the baby will be overfed from the milk that is coming in.

What about babies fed expressed milk in bottles? They can definitely be overfed. I've even read here on imamother of a woman whose daughter would be overfed expressed milk by her Russian babysitter and this child who is now ten has weight problems. Seems to me that the only effective way of nursing is actually to breastfeed directly and not use any bottles. This prevents weight issues in the child as well as the benefits of nursing clean.

Hashem_Yaazor

Mon, Jun 08 2009, 9:05 am

amother wrote:

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

guesswho wrote:

If the baby is content and sleeping, there is a chance that the baby will be overfed from the milk that is coming in.

Yes, bottlefed babies can definitely overfeed, no matter what is in it.
At least breastmilk is digested better and isn't as bad as obesity from formula, but the bottle method of feeding is a common cause of overfeeding. Paced bottlefeeding would help matters, but babysitters are not so keen on it...

momoswyf

Mon, Jun 08 2009, 9:14 am

guesswho wrote:

A lactation consultant told me that the reason for the link between night time feedings and LA is due to the fact that your body makes your hormones at night. When the baby suckles it suppresses hormone production. So, in order to have LA you want your hormones to be suppresed at the time when your body is making the most hormones--at night! My OB said if you BF every 2-4 hours it is effective BC for 6 months.

amother

Mon, Jun 08 2009, 9:31 am

I guess after reading this thread that no one believes that you can nurse clean for two years.

I have done that for two of my three children (and the fourth is on the way b'shaah tovah). The only reason I didn't nurse clean for my first was that I took too many people's advice about moving him out of my bed and sleep training him (at 1.5 years old). That month I got my period back. For the second and third (and fourth) child, I did not get my period back for 2 years. I am 35 now and my oldest is 8.

I do sleep with my babies and let them nurse at will and nurse during the day only on a loose schedule after about 6 months (every 3-4 hrs). I even started my children on solid food at 4 months.

So it can happen. Maybe it is rare, but it does happen.

Hashem_Yaazor

Mon, Jun 08 2009, 11:44 am

amother wrote:

I guess after reading this thread that no one believes that you can nurse clean for two years.

I didn't get that impression. I did get the impression that people either think it's impossible to nurse clean and people are lying if they do, or that it is possible.
I definitely think (know!) it happens. What I don't claim is that it's the norm anymore. I think most people don't due to the way they nurse or external factors like hormones, etc...But do I think it can be done? Definitely! And I think others agree.
If the average length of LA is 14.5 months, there are definitely people who nurse for more than 2 years without having a period...because in order for 14.5 to be average, and knowing that some people get their period at 3 months (etc) following proper guidelines, we need quite a good number of people higher than 14.5 months, 2 years to make that the average Smile

Inspired

Mon, Jun 08 2009, 12:32 pm

Isramom8 wrote:

Chance of pregnancy is practically zero during the first three months, less than 2% between 3 and 6 months, and about 6% after 6 months (assuming mom's menstrual periods have not yet returned).

And how do these percentages compare with various methods of birth control?

One link I posted definitely has a chart. Not sure which one.