modernday man-god worship?

ganizzy

Sun, Sep 27 2009, 12:45 am

marina wrote:

Yeah, it's terrible that poor children are asked to sing praises to a leader. What is the world coming to?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKcbeROxC_I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqWgFE7l-Eo

oops.

well in the first clip, children are saying long live our leader - a religous leader that they chose (or their parents chose) to follow.

thats different then singing praises in a democratic country to a regular man that just gor more votes then the next. if it was a song about a general that did s/t amazing, people wouldnt have a problem with it.

and the second clip? whats the problem, children being part of the army of Hashem. and listening to their spiritual leader whos encouraging them to do good deeds?
what am I missing?

marina

Sun, Sep 27 2009, 1:31 am

There is nothing wrong with either clip.

Children sing songs about Abe Lincoln and other presidents and other leaders. It's no big deal. The tzivos Hashem video is also fine.

But imagine the chaos that would result if the Tzivos Hashem video was replaced with a similar Army of America video and featured Obama speaking instead of the Rebbe. So many people in this country, but especially the right-wing, would have a coronary.

Some people are taking great pains to compare the Obama songs to Hitler Youth songs or some other dictatorships. My point is that if you choose to make comparisons of people who indoctrinate children for evil, it is only fair to compare the Obama songs to my videos where people are indoctrinating children for good.

Indoctrination is not, in and of itself, bad or good. It depends what it is used for and the OP's original song clip does not bother me in the least because there's nothing showing that this form of indoctrination is for any type of evil.

Just like it doesn't bother me when people teach their kids to sing yechi or have them pretend they are in an "army," which btw, was a very popular communistic strategy back in the day.

HindaRochel

Sun, Sep 27 2009, 2:05 am

Abe Lincoln is dead. They are not singing songs TO HIM. Nor are they doing it in the same manner. Songs sung about former presidents are more about teaching than praise songs.

The song that the children sing TO Obama contains a line from a praise song to yeshki. It will be familiar to many if not all the children in the group.

And that is the point Marina, Obama is being substituted for religious leaders. It would and is sickening. It is teaching children to "praise" Obama in that manner. It is indoctrination. And it is wrong.

He is an elected leader, not a religious leader. He is not our moral authority. He does not love us all no matter what our color.

marina

Sun, Sep 27 2009, 2:52 am

Quote:

And that is the point Marina, Obama is being substituted for religious leaders. It would and is sickening. It is teaching children to "praise" Obama in that manner. It is indoctrination. And it is wrong.

It makes no difference to me whether they are praising a religious leader or a secular one, I think that distinction is unimportant. The difference would be important if it was a leader who preached violence vs. one who did not, etc.

You do understand that neither Obama nor his administration are involved in these teaching moments, right? For example, he is not clapping along to the song or encouraging this, right?

That said, who are you, Hinda Rochel, to pass judgment over what kind of indoctrination, assuming it does not hurt anyone, is "wrong" for those particular families who may want their children educated in that way?

I would bet we can find plenty of people who would judge the type of indoctrination you provide your children to be "wrong and sickening" or the type of indoctrination I provide to my children to be "wrong" as well. So what?

mimivan

Sun, Sep 27 2009, 2:56 am

marina wrote:

Right on Marina! Absolutely nothing wrong with that IMHO! Very Happy

Last edited by mimivan on Sun, Sep 27 2009, 4:20 am; edited 1 time in total

HindaRochel

Sun, Sep 27 2009, 3:08 am

marina wrote:

Quote:

Because it isn't the parents who are doing it, it is the school.

And that is the problem.

Parents want to teach their kids to chant to Obama, that's the parents right. School shouldn't be.
And it is wrong.

And can "pass judgement." you have. You have decided it is fine. I have said it isn't fine.
You miss the point that they are substituting a secular human being for one, who albeit dead and also a human being is in the eyes of Chritians a deity. So now we have a living man praised using the same words from a song that praises a person's god.

btMOMtoFFBs

Sun, Sep 27 2009, 7:19 am

That had no place happening in a public school.

In many public schools and universities in America, Liberal beliefs are being equated with "morality" or "values" while Conservatives are treated as evil morons (stupid for not being liberal, and "bad" and uncaring people as well).

That's not how public education is supposed to be.

marina

Sun, Sep 27 2009, 12:21 pm

I would agree that if the parents in the public school were against it, the school should not have forced their children into this. But I really doubt that anyone is coerced into choirs singing songs about Obama.

I also agree that conservatives are sometimes villified. Not in all places, but in some. Just like liberals are villified in many places. I would guess that a student with liberal viewpoints is not going to get as friendly treatment in quite a few southern states as s/he would have received in some coastal states.

Part of the problem, imo, is that some fringe elements are taking over the conservative party and making them look a little over the edge.

And about the secular-deity adoration, we'll just have to disagree. America has always had its icons, whether those were actors, pop singers, religious leaders, civil rights activists or presidents. As long as the leader is not preaching hate or violence, I couldn't care less if some kids in some choir are singing a songs of praise about him.

Atali

Sun, Sep 27 2009, 12:40 pm

marina wrote:

The same can be said for the liberals. There are reasonable liberals, but it seems that the more extreme elements are taking over the party.

Imaonwheels

Mon, Sep 28 2009, 3:19 pm

And the tune happens to come from a hymn.

Is someone trying to say that in PS the parents are asked if they want this? I went to PS in Southern Pennsylvania, a city that was strongly consevative but democrat because of the influence of the union bosses. Our school did not reflect that reality at all. And you are 100% sure that none of those children have parents who are conservatives who would rather Obama not be president? There were 4 Jews in my graduating class of over 400. We were batel b'shishim and not ever considered.

A religious group should be able to operate as it pleases, there is freedom of religion here supposedly. A public school should not be teaching values that are not strongly in the national consensus and should never try to supplant the parents' values.

And yes, there is a major difference between praise to one's chosen religious leader and any public forum operating on a partisan political basis. Young children should be taught to respect the office of president even if my chosen candidate doesn't hold it. search the youtube, can people find one clip of school children being taught a song about Bush? Or Reagan?

Religious or right bias is handled immediately by the court where as left bias is considered enlightening.

HindaRochel

Mon, Sep 28 2009, 3:28 pm

Agree with you Imaonwheels.

Marina, your response to our objections ignores the points that both Imaonwheels and I have brought up.

One part of the song is from a Christin hymn, secondly this was in school, and there is no evidence that the parents agreed.

But it is still okay?