modernday man-god worship?

leomom

Mon, Sep 28 2009, 10:54 pm

I think it would be one thing if something like this came AFTER a truly great accomplishment. (OK, getting elected is an accomplishment, but it does not show what he may be capable of actually achieving.) I don't think I would like it much in that case, either, but I could at least understand the motivation.

I'm trying to mentally put myself back to elementary school, and imagine singing:

Carter, oh Carter
You will bring peace
To the Middle East
Jimmy Carter
We are for you
Mmm Mmm Mmm
And we will all eat peanuts
To honor your name

Atali

Mon, Sep 28 2009, 11:05 pm

yy wrote:

No one would sing such a song these days. If a kid were to hear that song he may attempt to eat peanuts (a potential allergen). If any of the children has a reaction it may cause the parents to sue the school.

Note: I am not mocking those parents who are concerned about their children's allergies, but rather the lawsuit-crazy society we live in today.

marina

Tue, Sep 29 2009, 3:07 am

Quote:

Marina, your response to our objections ignores the points that both Imaonwheels and I have brought up.

One part of the song is from a Christin hymn, secondly this was in school, and there is no evidence that the parents agreed.

Uh, okay.

I do not think public school children are being forced against their will to sing hymns of praise to our president. This is a choir, folks. That means kids are selected for it and it may even be done after school. Do you all have a problem with the pledge of allegiance? It's fine if you do, our constitution allows for that too, see the J Witnesses Supreme Court case on that topic.

And no, I don't care that religious terms are being used to describe a secular leader. Even after all reading all the rhetoric about dictatorships, etc, etc, I'm not particularly concerned. To many African-American communities, Obama's presidency has miraculous significance with religious overtones. You honestly want to deny them that? You honestly think something bad will happen if little black children grow up with Obama as an icon, whether religious or secular?

Abe Lincoln's freeing of the slaves had similar yetzias mitzrayim overtones...

To many white communities, Obama's presidency has incredible significance as well, even just for the symbolism of making progress with regard to America's history of prejudice. People somehow want to impart that to their children. I really don't see the big deal.

Yeah, if you show me evidence that parents were not consulted or were against it and their poor little children were brainwashed into singing nice songs about the president, I'll reconsider. Until then, ciao!

Imaonwheels

Tue, Sep 29 2009, 6:16 am

That shows a lack of understanding of how public school works. Many parents are totally passive and do not get involved. The majority who do are mainly concerned with their own child's academic and social progress. Those who oppose on moral, religious or political grounds are labeled ther kooky parent of the year because we all know OUR values are enlightened. Since the 60s public school has been actively teaching values as opposed to neutrally respecting them (take note also those who believe that PS can be a neutral replacement for day school). That is why positions that were off the left side of the radar when I was a kid are now pretty standard values. The public school and entertainment industry have accomplished this.

I would need proof to believe that this song was run by parents before teaching, it is not the way public school works. And how do you know this is a sign up choir (very rare in early elementary) or a regular music lesson for the whole class for a school performance. I was a performer and recieved small parts in class plays and parent nights at that age. A need to audition for a performing group normally is for 6th-7th grade.

Imaonwheels

Wed, Sep 30 2009, 1:29 am

No. When I was in PS parents definitely would call them on something like this. It is TODAY that parents are afraid to speak up against anything liberal being pushed unless they live in a "safe zone" like western PA. My siblings all have kids in public school and the atmosphere in the homes is not being matched, or even respected, in some of the schools. And yes, it has been said before that my long time in Israel automatically possels anything I hear from friends, siblings, women on forums or reading.

HindaRochel

Wed, Sep 30 2009, 1:48 am

I do know that parents have complained and children have been upset by some of this stuff, not necessarily in reaction to this particular video, but to other things that have been going on.

That doesn't mean the school listened.

Not all parents pay close attention to what is going on. Not all children come home and tell their parents "today we sang a song praising Obama". Not all children bring home their pop quizzes (as one high school student did) because she was upset by the contents.

Many kids just stay quiet.

So we have no idea what the reaction was. The problem was it occurred in the first place.

It should not have, chavamom, this was not appropriate for the schools.

btw,stop distorting what the parents were concerned about. It wasn't the speech, it was the study guide and things such as this. THAT is why they didn't want their children to go hear the speech. I think the speech would have been fine to listen to, it was the study guides the parents should have demanded be cut out, as well as this narishkeit, the odes to Obama and what not.

That the parents should be strenuously objecting to.

You can not unsay (or in this case) unsing something.

chavamom

Wed, Sep 30 2009, 2:17 am

Quote:

Some Parents Oppose Obama School Speech

By JAMES C. McKINLEY Jr. and SAM DILLON
Published: September 3, 2009

HOUSTON — President Obama’s plan to deliver a speech to public school students on Tuesday has set off a revolt among conservative parents, who have accused the president of trying to indoctrinate their children with socialist ideas and are asking school officials to excuse the children from listening.

The uproar over the speech, in which Mr. Obama intends to urge students to work hard and stay in school, has been particularly acute in Texas, where several major school districts, under pressure from parents, have laid plans to let children opt out of lending the president an ear.

Some parents said they were concerned because the speech had not been screened for political content. Nor, they said, had it been reviewed by the State Board of Education and local school boards, which, under state law, must approve the curriculum.

“The thing that concerned me most about it was it seemed like a direct channel from the president of the United States into the classroom, to my child,” said Brett Curtis, an engineer from Pearland, Tex., who said he would keep his three children home.

“I don’t want our schools turned over to some socialist movement.”

OH right! They just forgot to mention that it was the lesson plan they were really upset about. Just ignore all that noise and distortion I made up about being them opposed to that socialist trying to brainwash their children.

chavamom

Wed, Sep 30 2009, 2:20 am

yy wrote:

I think that you are missing that for minority kids, the fact that a black man got elected is a HUGE accomplishment, one many of their parents never thought they would see in their lifetime.

leomom

Wed, Sep 30 2009, 2:50 am

It is inspiring for many that a black man was elected, but is that what they are singing about when they sing "for all your great accomplishments"?

If he brings about some kind of tangible good result of this inspiration -- let's say in four years, violence and crime in urban/black communities is way down and scholastic achievement is way up -- then we can acknowledge his accomplishments. Not necessarily in school choirs, but at least in newspaper articles.

btMOMtoFFBs

Wed, Sep 30 2009, 6:17 am

chavamom wrote:

Riiiiiiiiiight. Rolling Eyes

We know how parents were just cowed and afraid to say anything when Obama gave that "brain washing" speech about staying in school and doing your best.

BTW - I currently have a kid in public school. I'm calling you on being totally out of touch.

If you speak up against Obama's proposed legislation, policies or speeches, you are considered a bigot. Just ask former president Carter, he said so himself. We all know the liberal values and leanings of most public education systems in the U.S. Many people are uncomfortable speaking out publicly or to their school for fear of the bigot label.

I am certainly not a bigot. I am proud that this country reached a stage where a black man could be our President. But I think Obama is arrogant, utterly dishonest, and untrustworthy. I think his policies are bad for this country and crippling our economy. Do those views make me a racist? Could I comfortably express them to a black public school principal and have her not think bad things of me as a parent? (if my kid was in her public school?) Are the first and second sentences of this paragraph so diametrically opposed that its not possible to be not bigoted and not like Obama at the same time?

Songs lauding our current President have no place in a public school, even if the parents don't care. Public education should be apolitical... the curriculum too! (That means there shouldn't be math word problems about diversity and social studies units on racism of the White founding fathers, etc.)

marina

Wed, Sep 30 2009, 8:28 am

Quote:

Do you know what Obama's reaction was to the Carter statement? It was pretty funny.

Of course, reasonable people can disagree about the President's policies and positions. That's not racist in the least. But when parents go so crazy as to pull their kids out of school so they "shouldn't hear that black guy speak," a direct quote from one of my friends who works in a public school, there's not a lot of other conclusions we can make.

Quote:

Songs lauding our current President have no place in a public school, even if the parents don't care. Public education should be apolitical... the curriculum too! (That means there shouldn't be math word problems about diversity and social studies units on racism of the White founding fathers, etc.)

Does it bother you that there are x-mas Pageants in schools? Does it bother you that children learn about evolution in schools? Are there, perhaps, any more important problems that plague our nation's schools? Like the fact that some schools are graduating illiterate children? Like the fact that some schools can't even get kids to show up to school in the first place?

I wish all those people who got so angry about the fact that some children would hear the president speak, I wish all those people would get that angry about the abysmal state of education in some inner city schools instead. All that energy could be put to good use.

btMOMtoFFBs

Wed, Sep 30 2009, 8:36 am

marina wrote:

Yep all those inadequacies in public ed bother me a lot. In fact I see them as a direct result of infusing liberalism into education. Take all the politics out of history and math just teach the facts and skills. All that other stuff is a time waster and fluff and does little to actually educate a student, but it does indoctrinate them nicely.

Schools should stop dumbing down curriculum b/c inner city kids may not keep up. It can be a self fulfilling prophecy. They have the same brain cells as any other kids. Expose everyone to good curricula, hire good teachers and pay them their due, teach them well, incentivize students to do well, reward them for hard work and expect greatness from them all.

Imaonwheels

Thu, Oct 01 2009, 6:51 am

It is definitely fine that the president of a country like the US be any race, religion or gender. But the office of president must be separated from the man holding it. Even if you loved Clinton's policies you have to hate his public disgracing of the office by his philandering. Even if you hate Obama you have to respect the office. What is wrong is implying that a black president must be as great as that achievement. Most of us are aware enough to know that who gets to high office is decided as much in smoke filled rooms as it is at the ballot box.

As I said, I am quite sure a song praising Bush as a great defender of democracy would be enough to get fired and would get the same treatment by liberals on youtube as this is getting from conservatives. Quit using the most wacky elements on the right as if they are representative.

Very young kids have to learn about the office of the president, high school kids are old enough to discuss policies if given access to free research of sources reflecting a number of opinions. When we see the head of a nation we must say a brachah but when the Kaiser visited EY Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld stayed in his house to avoid making that brachah.

So some parents don't want any mention of Obama to their kids. As a man they have that right. Kids should know who there president is. The great achievement of being the first black president will stand or fall on what he does with the responsibility he accepted from the American people. Kids that little should not have words of praise put in their mouths by the teacher for the MAN.

BTW, I don't think the person who posted that video was happy about what was going on. The objection of one parent should be enough to stop it.

marina

Thu, Oct 01 2009, 8:56 am

Quote:

What is wrong is implying that a black president must be as great as that achievement. Most of us are aware enough to know that who gets to high office is decided as much in smoke filled rooms as it is at the ballot box

1st, no I don't think Obama got elected b/c of some political machinations,is that what you are suggesting? I'm not sure how that would work, with the exception of tying in campaign funding and basically arguing that the only reason he got elected is because he got more money in those "smoke-filled" rooms. I don't agree with you on that.

About separating the office from the man, that's not an easy thing to do. Take Jackie Robinson, the 1st black baseball player in the major league. Now was he a great baseball player? Does baseball even matter? Does it make a difference to the state of the world what happens when a bunch of grown men are given big bats and a little ball to play with? And still kids learn about him in school and I'm sure they sing songs and whatever. He is considered a great man.

It all comes down to the fact that people need leaders. A song praising Bush would have been made fun of, but no one would have been fired over it, that's crazy to imagine that some teacher would be fired over having her students sing songs of praise about Bush.

Quote:

Kids that little should not have words of praise put in their mouths by the teacher for the MAN.

But kids should have words of praise put in their mouths by teachers for the RELIGIOUS MAN? Why's that? I think both are fine, to some extent, and despite all the back and forth I don't see that harm comes from one and not the other.

Quote:

BTW, I don't think the person who posted that video was happy about what was going on. The objection of one parent should be enough to stop it.

Conjecture. One parent could have taken a video of his kid's choir and s/o else could have copied and published and a 3rd person could have been outraged. You know how these things work. You can't assume anything like that.

supermama2

Thu, Oct 01 2009, 9:15 am

marina wrote:

I would agree that if the parents in the public school were against it, the school should not have forced their children into this. But I really doubt that anyone is coerced into choirs singing songs about Obama.

I also agree that conservatives are sometimes villified. Not in all places, but in some. Just like liberals are villified in many places. I would guess that a student with liberal viewpoints is not going to get as friendly treatment in quite a few southern states as s/he would have received in some coastal states.

Part of the problem, imo, is that some fringe elements are taking over the conservative party and making them look a little over the edge.

And about the secular-deity adoration, we'll just have to disagree. America has always had its icons, whether those were actors, pop singers, religious leaders, civil rights activists or presidents. As long as the leader is not preaching hate or violence, I couldn't care less if some kids in some choir are singing a songs of praise about him.

I haven't read all of the posts yet so I could have missed something but the parents of these kids didn't know what was going on and some were upset b/c the found out via the internet and not via the school. The school said that this was for "black history" month.