Leaving EY | Imamother

BeershevaBubby

Fri, Oct 16 2009, 2:37 am

catonmylap wrote:

The halachot about not leaving are about moving permanently/making yerida, not going on vacation. Otherwise, how can you come on vacation here and then go back to where you came from? You buy a round-trip, not one-way ticket because you are just going for a short time. Travel today is not like it once-was- it is safer, faster, and cheaper. There is no fear that you won't come back if you go to Europe for a week.

There is a haskafa/value to not leaving E"Y at all. And Kol ha'kovod to those who are strict about it (as long as they don't have a compelling reason--like visiting parents, or illness, etc). And it is something to consider when you are planning a vacation. Usually financial aspects have a larger impact here, as staying in Israel is cheaper, and the salaries here aren't very high.

I'd love to travel the world if I had the money for that. It would be ridiculous not to make aliya because you won't be able to vacation around the world...

But it is not assur to go on vacation.

It is also kind of ironic to see that those who live outside Israel are commenting here that it is assur for Israelis to leave.

And what about those who are leaving E"Y to go Uman??? (Another thread, I know, but they have obviously are permitted to do so by their Rabbanim).

ITA.

Raisin

Fri, Oct 16 2009, 2:51 am

Seraph wrote:

Atali wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

I personally cannot undestand renouncing to the whole wide world, a creation of Hashem for us to enjoy. Not sure I'm expressing myself well. But it seems like such a waste of experience, enjoyment, learning and also kiddush Hashem...

One could use that argument about so many things (eating non-kosher food, etc.), but that doesn't change halacha.

Except that rav shimshon rafael hirsch that anyone who hasnt seen the alps cant properly appreciate Hashem, and he advised that everyone come visit the alps to learn to appreciate Hashem. How can you see the alps if you can't leave israel?

I think he was talking to people living in Germany in the 19th century, when travel was expensive and the furthest most people could go on vacation was to the Alps. I doubt he is telling people in E'y that the HAVE to go to the alps. there are plenty of beautiful natural sights in E'y.

(what does ITA mean???????????????????????)

Atali

Fri, Oct 16 2009, 7:45 am

catonmylap wrote:

1. This is a halachic discussion, so I see no reason why non-Israelis cannot discuss it, the same way that I would have no objection if Israelis joined a discussion about the halachos of the second day of Yom Tov.
2. Going to Uman is for reasons of ruchniyus to become inspired and improves ones learning and davening throughout the year
3. What is your source that a vacation is different for those who already live in E"Y? As I understand it, you cannot derive it from the halacha about those visiting EY from chutz la'aretz since the reasoning is totally different. Those who are visiting from chutz laaretz has never aquired the halachic status of a resident of EY to be bound by the halachos in the first place.

Hashem_Yaazor

Fri, Oct 16 2009, 8:12 am

amother wrote:

Seraph wrote:

Atali wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

One could use that argument about so many things (eating non-kosher food, etc.), but that doesn't change halacha.

While certain Rabbanim don't say it's assur to leave Israel and travel, they refer to travelling for pleasure as hevel hevalim, including one gadol in particular I can think of. We can appreciate nature and Hashem with traipsing around the world. If Rav S.R. Hirsch indeed said that all I can say is I don't know much about that Rav but I have a problem accepting that comment.

Rav Hirsch was a very choshuve rav in Germany in the 1800s.
He was also speaking to a different generation of people not living in E"Y, which is a key point.

I've also heard it said that R' Avigdor Miller also spoke about issues like this. But he was speaking to people who don't have the beauty of E"Y to appreciate -- Hashem gave 10 measures of beauty. 9 are in Yerushalayim/E"Y. One who lives there doesn't have the same need to go out and see niflaos haborei as someone in Manhattan does.

Last edited by Hashem_Yaazor on Fri, Oct 16 2009, 8:14 am; edited 1 time in total

shalhevet

Sat, Oct 17 2009, 2:39 pm

Ruchel wrote:

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Vacation is a means to relax.

If you want it to be. It can also be to have fun (forbidden word in some circles).

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The Chinese auctions have people lusting over going to [dream destination] when that really isn't a Yiddishe dream.

If you say so.

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It's not a Jewish value to go and do and sightsee all over

It's not more or less a Jewish value to eat out or shop or play monopoly. It's FUN. And done the right away can also make you do mitsvos.

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and make a kiddush Hashem there and learn from the bad. That's why Shalhevet said those are secular values. There is no source in Yiddishkeit for doing all that. It's excuses.

I have no answer as you keep twisting my words. Good sign for me, it probably means you have no answer.

There really is no answer to those who can't see it. Taamu u'reu ki tov Hashem - taste and see that Hashem('s ways) are good.

It's rather like trying to persuade a peasant enjoying his bread and beer that he would have more pleasure from a visit to a fine art gallery.

shalhevet

Sat, Oct 17 2009, 2:44 pm

Raisin wrote:

Seraph wrote:

Atali wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

One could use that argument about so many things (eating non-kosher food, etc.), but that doesn't change halacha.

I also agree with you, Raisin. He wasn't talking about people who could go and see Yerushalayim and the Galil instead. (I think there's also a midrash that Switzerland took the beauty of EY after the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash.) He was trying to make a point AFAI understand - that how could anyone see the Alps and not believe in Hashem? I don't think he was advocating it as a mitzva you have to do, even if you live in Europe (or did I miss one of the 613?)

shalhevet

Sat, Oct 17 2009, 2:46 pm

Ruchel wrote:

YES. That's exactly what I'm thinking. Except I also think some people would rather not understand what could affect them when they're not certain of enjoying their lifestyle so much. And with that I cannot disagree. Ignorance is bliss (sometimes).

I think I wasn't clear - secular "fun" is mud compared to the beauty of the Torah's spirituality. Those rolling in it can't even understand what people like HY is talking about. Only a fool prefers to stay a peasant and enjoy his ignorance.

shalhevet

Sat, Oct 17 2009, 2:52 pm

catonmylap wrote:

Maybe your rabbanim say that. Mine don't.

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There is a haskafa/value to not leaving E"Y at all. And Kol ha'kovod to those who are strict about it (as long as they don't have a compelling reason--like visiting parents, or illness, etc). And it is something to consider when you are planning a vacation. Usually financial aspects have a larger impact here, as staying in Israel is cheaper, and the salaries here aren't very high.

I agree. People who can't afford vacation abroad don't go regardless of what their rav says. But those who have the money and go often haven't even asked a rav. It is a big kvetch to find some hetter to go abroad just for a vacation.

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I'd love to travel the world if I had the money for that. It would be ridiculous not to make aliya because you won't be able to vacation around the world...

Agreed. That probably wouldn't go down as a good reason after 120 years.

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But it is not assur to go on vacation.

Depends who, where and when.

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It is also kind of ironic to see that those who live outside Israel are commenting here that it is assur for Israelis to leave.

What Atali said.

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And what about those who are leaving E"Y to go Uman??? (Another thread, I know, but they have obviously are permitted to do so by their Rabbanim).

Who says mainstream (outside Breslov) rabbonim permit it? I can't answer for them. But IMO it's pretty pointless at best, since the tefillos from all kivrei tzaddikim around the world are redirected to the Rashbi's kever in Meron and from there to Maaras hamachpela. Why not take the direct route?

Ruchel

Sat, Oct 17 2009, 3:08 pm

shalhevet wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

I agree with you. Maybe I'm just a very spiritual person. I see the beauty of Torah and Hashem's work everywhere. For some to see it it takes being in a shul or a kollel all day only surrounded by obviously kadosh things (or to not venture out of a small part of the world). I'm happy I'm not that way.

creativemommyto3

Sat, Oct 17 2009, 4:12 pm

shalhevet wrote:

catonmylap wrote:

Maybe your rabbanim say that. Mine don't.

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I'd love to travel the world if I had the money for that. It would be ridiculous not to make aliya because you won't be able to vacation around the world...

Agreed. That probably wouldn't go down as a good reason after 120 years.

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But it is not assur to go on vacation.

Depends who, where and when.

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It is also kind of ironic to see that those who live outside Israel are commenting here that it is assur for Israelis to leave.

What Atali said.

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And what about those who are leaving E"Y to go Uman??? (Another thread, I know, but they have obviously are permitted to do so by their Rabbanim).

Gee.. I WISH you were there with me on yom tov when I was telling my sil about how I REALLY don't want to go to chul EVER again for yom tov (or at all for that matter)
and that it's really a HETER for us to leave at all.. and she went into this whole thing about Moshiach not being here yet and that it's the ONLY way to see family or only time.. I proved her otherwise.. Granted my inlaws can't travel b/c my fil is on dialysis .. but that doesn't mean that yom tov is the time for us to travel. we felt soo empty and felt like our yom tov was killed by the fact that we weren't in EY.. this is something that someone in chutz just can't understand.

Imaonwheels

Sat, Oct 17 2009, 5:15 pm

I already said that this is an issue for poskim, not gee I'll miss so mush fun. Just jumping in to protest the disgusting mainstream as opposed to Breslov rabbonim. I am not Breslov but there is no such thing as mainstream unless you are talking about all Orthodox rabbonim. There are Breslov rabbonim, Chabad rabonim, DL rabonim, MO rabbanim and Litvishe rabbonim. There are other types as well. Each one is keeping a particular shita. There are no "mainstream" rabbonim which is a way to demean and possel.

Not traveling to chutz is a halacha discussed in sifrei psak and it cannot be canceled by women on Imamother because they feel like they are missing something. There are halachic reasons and going to one's Rebbe and coming back is definitely allowed. Sorry, mainstream psak to all.

creativemommyto3

Sat, Oct 17 2009, 5:21 pm

Imaonwheels wrote:

I hope you aren't talking about my post b/c I was talking about the fact that my neshama felt like my yom tov was sooo lacking due to the fact that I wasn't in EY where I belong. I don't care about fun. I care about being in the holiest place on the face of the universe .. and not wanting to leave ever ... something that seems so far fetched to those that live outside chutz...

catonmylap

Sat, Oct 17 2009, 9:50 pm

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There's an irony there, that's all.

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2. Going to Uman is for reasons of ruchniyus to become inspired and improves ones learning and davening throughout the year

I don't want to get into Uman, but there are definitely objections to it in other streams of Orthodoxy.

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3. What is your source that a vacation is different for those who already live in E"Y? As I understand it, you cannot derive it from the halacha about those visiting EY from chutz la'aretz since the reasoning is totally different. Those who are visiting from chutz laaretz has never aquired the halachic status of a resident of EY to be bound by the halachos in the first place.

Because you are acknowledging that airline travel exists and is safe, etc, 20th century technology in that a visitor to E"Y doesn't have the status of a resident. If he arrived in 1300, he would certainly become a resident of E"Y.

So, shouldn't a resident of E"Y be able to be a visitor somewhere else?

Atali

Sat, Oct 17 2009, 10:06 pm

catonmylap wrote:

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There's an irony there, that's all.

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2. Going to Uman is for reasons of ruchniyus to become inspired and improves ones learning and davening throughout the year

I don't want to get into Uman, but there are definitely objections to it in other streams of Orthodoxy.

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Source?

If someone back then was also visiting temporarily (it would seem reasonable that a Jew from Syria or Egypt could have done so), I have no reason to assume the halacha would be different.

Also, even if that was the case your logic doesn't work. Today's visitor never gains the status of a resident of EY in the first place and is therefore totally not bound by the halachos. Today's resident of EY does have the status of a resident of EY and is therefore bound by the halachos. The fact that it is easier for him to leave EY is irrelevant.