Isn't this a halachic issue?

lamplighter

Wed, Nov 18 2009, 8:08 pm

I have a lot of apples and was thinking to make apple crumble for dessert friday night and serve it with vanilla ice cream. I notice many people do this but hot apple crumble or molten chocolate cakes will MELT the ice cream. Isn't this not allowed on shabbos?

WriterMom

Wed, Nov 18 2009, 8:13 pm

la456 wrote:

A room temperature plate will melt ice cream too, it'll just melt faster if you put it on a hot apple crumble.

lamplighter

Wed, Nov 18 2009, 8:29 pm

so HOT cake/crumble with ice cream is not a halchic issue on shabbos because all ice cream eventually melts?

pinktichel

Wed, Nov 18 2009, 11:21 pm

Dh told me that as long as 1. the plate itself isn't hot 2. you don't put the ice cream directly on top of/touching the hot dessert, it is fine. I guess the right thing to do is check with your LOR. Smile

Isramom8

Wed, Nov 18 2009, 11:34 pm

Isn't ice cream already "cooked"? That would present less of a problem.
Although if it contains raw eggs, that presents more of a problem - eggs are considered more easily cooked than other raw foods.

chocolate moose

Thu, Nov 19 2009, 7:35 am

You think you've got problems.......... I made an apple crumble and one of the guests refused to eat it until he had said Borei Minei Mezonos on a cracker first - and it was b'toych seudah !!!!

AlwaysGrateful

Thu, Nov 19 2009, 8:32 am

I would definitely ask a shayla. It would probably depend on whether the ice cream is considered cooked, and on whether it's considered a liquid or a solid.

For the person who said that a plate will melt the ice cream as well, that's overlooking an important halachic concept. If you have a hot piece of chicken, yad soledes bo, on your plate, you are not allowed to put salad so that it touches the chicken. Hot solids can also "cook" things halachically. But this only applies to things that are raw l'chol hadayos. I wouldn't be surprised if the answer to the original question were that it's fine because it's probably a solid and probably considered cooked according to some opinions, but I would most definitely ask a shayla about it first.

Lady Godiva

Thu, Nov 19 2009, 8:36 am

chocolate moose wrote:

I guess he didn't consier the topping to be realy mezonos.

Many toppings have more margarine than they do flour.
So did he say Birkat Hamazon and then Mezonot?

sky

Thu, Nov 19 2009, 8:39 am

pinktichel wrote:

I was told this also. That you cannot make the ice cream melt faster then normal. If you put it on hot cake then it will melt faster.

teachby

Thu, Nov 19 2009, 8:39 am

While we're on the topic, can someone tell me how to serve a Molten Chocolate Dessert on shabbos. Also, do you have a good recipe?

Lady Godiva

Thu, Nov 19 2009, 8:41 am

When somebody wants to figure out what Beracha to make, I usually tell them the measurements of the ingredients to help them decide.

Sorry OP, for going off topic.
What if you put the ice cream next to the cake instead of on top of it? Also, I know that putting ice into a drink is okay on Shabbat, but pouring a drink over ice is not. Isn't ice being melted when it's put into a drink? Is that the same idea as putting ice cream on a cake?

WriterMom

Thu, Nov 19 2009, 8:45 am

Lady Godiva wrote:

What if you put the ice cream next to the cake instead of on top of it? Also, I know that putting ice into a drink is okay on Shabbat, but pouring a drink over ice is not. Isn't ice being melted when it's put into a drink? Is that the same idea as putting ice cream on a cake?

So, wouldn't the parallel be that you could put a scoop of ice cream on top of a warm cake, but you could not pour hot fudge sauce over ice cream?

Lady Godiva

Thu, Nov 19 2009, 8:48 am

WriterMom wrote:

Lady Godiva wrote:

So, wouldn't the parallel be that you could put a scoop of ice cream on top of a warm cake, but you could not pour hot fudge sauce over ice cream?

I have no clue. I'm just asking a question. Your parallel does make sense though, because you are heating the ice cream with the hot fudge.

sky

Thu, Nov 19 2009, 9:04 am

Lady Godiva wrote:

Sorry OP, for going off topic.
What if you put the ice cream next to the cake instead of on top of it? Also, I know that putting ice into a drink is okay on Shabbat, but pouring a drink over ice is not. Isn't ice being melted when it's put into a drink? Is that the same idea as putting ice cream on a cake?

The ice cubes have to do with melting them into anotther liquid, rather then outside of liquid - I think.

gryp

Thu, Nov 19 2009, 9:35 am

The difference is that the cake/pie is supposed to be hot. Much different than cold on cold. Although thinking of it now, the cake/pie probably isn't hot enough to be considered hot enough to cook, so maybe it's not a problem after all.

GetReal

Thu, Nov 19 2009, 10:05 am

There are two issues here. Leaving aside bishul for a moment, there is an issur of nolad - causing a new entity. Which means that some poskim prohibit putting frozen liquids near something hot that will melt them.

Putting them at room temperature is okay, but according to these poskim, a hot place is not okay.

There are other poskim who say that only manually (by your own hand) making a new entity is a problem, but just causing it to melt is fine.

So speak to your local orthodox rabbi!