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Forum
-> Interesting Discussions
Would you be less upset if you found out that your husband was secretly being mechallel shabbos or that he was cheating on you?
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I would be more upset about chillul shabbos |
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8% |
[ 20 ] |
I would be more upset about an affair |
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91% |
[ 225 ] |
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Total Votes : 245 |
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ora_43
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Tue, Feb 21 2012, 6:42 am
I think both would be against both me and Hashem, but obviously to different degrees. As previous posters said, an affair is not allowed these days even if the other lady is single and uses the mikva (and would it ever have been allowed for a man to have a secret second wife, if he lied about it? I don't think so).
But I would feel that secret chillul Shabbat betrays me, albeit not to the degree an affair would. That's a really big secret to keep from a spouse. (Chillul Shabbat after warning me about it would be different - still painful, but different.)
Ultimately - affair would be worse. Not just emotionally, but also because it would show that he not only would violate the mitzvot that only frum Jews hold by, but also those that most of the world holds by. And that he was willing to not only betray Hashem, who can't be seen and so can be harder to keep in mind, but also me, a person who he could have no doubt 1. exists 2. doesn't want him to do that.
IOW, it would show worse middot, and that's a harder thing to fix. One inspirational event can be enough to convince someone to keep Shabbat, but overcoming being the kind of person who cheats on your spouse (whether due to emotional trauma, addiction, or just being a total jerk, or a combination of the above) tends to take ages.
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browser
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Tue, Feb 21 2012, 9:21 am
what exactly is apikorsus?
A friend confided in me recently that she doesn't always keep shabbos . She said she believes in G-d but she doesn't feel connected and a lot of the laws don't have meaning to her. She did not have a positive experience with religion growing up and she started breaking shabbos at a young age.
I did not know what to tell her but I would not judge her as an 'apikores'- someone rebelling against G-d.
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amother
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Tue, Feb 21 2012, 10:30 am
Apikorsus is worse than a secret affair. Fact.
Before you attack me, hear me out
My husband is chassidish and an apikorus. The hell that I'm going through is indescribable. For those of you that have never dealt with a rebel, OTD, apikorus, orthoprax etc.- know that these people change completely. My husband was a people smart person, happy, emotional at the right time. He has changed so drastically and the way I think now is that he can never become what he used to be because he is really damaged. It is hard to erase apikorsus that is in the mind and heart.
An affair on the other hand, when a man completely cuts off from the other woman, he can rebuild his relationship. True, it is so difficult but I have seen it happen. As for my situation, I have only seen divorce.
For that alone, I would say that apikorsus is worse.
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AlwaysGrateful
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Tue, Feb 21 2012, 10:36 am
Faigy86 wrote: | Makes a big difference if the question is - which is objectively worse, or which hurts you more...
Objectively, assuming they are both taava based aveiros, (the example of facebooking on shabbos) they should be aproximately the same. Obviously, on an emotional level, it isn't!!!
But, if we are talking about real apikorsus (not taava based) then on an objective level, the apikorsus is much worse...
But, my knee jerk reaction is "Apikorsus is cheating on G-d, an affair is cheating on you." and I hope we all agree which one feels worse... |
I agree with this one, 100% -- assuming that we're talking about chilllul Hashem.
If we're talking real apikorsus (which was the title of this thread, but not in the poll), I would say apikorsus is definitely worse. Both would turn my life upside down. But I could see a way out of the first, not out of the second.
I did not vote, since the title and the poll don't match each other.
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Merrymom
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Tue, Feb 21 2012, 11:47 am
ElTam wrote: | Quote: | Look at the results of this poll and now look at what the Torah allows, the very thing that would be so much worse to us. Amazing. |
What are your feelings on slavery, Merrymom? The Torah allows that. |
Slavery with a maximum time limit of seven years, where the slave gets fed before the master, the same food, the better bedding, etc. is not exactly horrific treatment for a thief. Otoh, here we have something that would cause such incredible pain and disease and yet it's allowed (takanah d'rabeinu gershom notwithstanding). How is this possible?
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MommyZ
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Tue, Feb 21 2012, 12:00 pm
amother wrote: | Apikorsus is worse than a secret affair. Fact.
Before you attack me, hear me out
My husband is chassidish and an apikorus. The hell that I'm going through is indescribable. For those of you that have never dealt with a rebel, OTD, apikorus, orthoprax etc.- know that these people change completely. My husband was a people smart person, happy, emotional at the right time. He has changed so drastically and the way I think now is that he can never become what he used to be because he is really damaged. It is hard to erase apikorsus that is in the mind and heart.
An affair on the other hand, when a man completely cuts off from the other woman, he can rebuild his relationship. True, it is so difficult but I have seen it happen. As for my situation, I have only seen divorce.
For that alone, I would say that apikorsus is worse. |
Fact? People go off and come back but when a family is torn apart by an affair it is extraordinarily painful. It is in fact excruciating. The pain I feel is not only my own but that of my children who are innocent in all of this. I respectfully disagree. An affair is at least as bad, if not worse.
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amother
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Tue, Feb 21 2012, 1:08 pm
Merrymom wrote: | ElTam wrote: | Quote: | Look at the results of this poll and now look at what the Torah allows, the very thing that would be so much worse to us. Amazing. |
What are your feelings on slavery, Merrymom? The Torah allows that. |
Slavery with a maximum time limit of seven years, where the slave gets fed before the master, the same food, the better bedding, etc. is not exactly horrific treatment for a thief. Otoh, here we have something that would cause such incredible pain and disease and yet it's allowed (takanah d'rabeinu gershom notwithstanding). How is this possible? |
I assumed she was referring to an eved kna'ani
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Ruchel
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Tue, Feb 21 2012, 2:44 pm
Affair is a double sin: against G-d and against a person who gets hurt.
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freidasima
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Tue, Feb 21 2012, 2:48 pm
So I guess no one here is afraid of STDs.
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mommyhood
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Tue, Feb 21 2012, 2:57 pm
freidasima wrote: | So I guess no one here is afraid of STDs. |
That was actually my first thought when I was deciding what to vote. Emotionally I don't know which would make me feel worse, but on a practical level chilul Shabbos does not pose a risk to my health while a dh having an affair could lead to lifelong health problems which I would not be willing to risk.
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Depressed
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Tue, Feb 21 2012, 8:17 pm
freidasima wrote: | So I guess no one here is afraid of STDs. |
FS you dont know by now that most of the maidelach here are so innocent they dont know what that is, or they arent comfortable talking about it
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amother
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Tue, Feb 21 2012, 9:03 pm
MommyZ wrote: | amother wrote: | Apikorsus is worse than a secret affair. Fact.
Before you attack me, hear me out
My husband is chassidish and an apikorus. The hell that I'm going through is indescribable. For those of you that have never dealt with a rebel, OTD, apikorus, orthoprax etc.- know that these people change completely. My husband was a people smart person, happy, emotional at the right time. He has changed so drastically and the way I think now is that he can never become what he used to be because he is really damaged. It is hard to erase apikorsus that is in the mind and heart.
An affair on the other hand, when a man completely cuts off from the other woman, he can rebuild his relationship. True, it is so difficult but I have seen it happen. As for my situation, I have only seen divorce.
For that alone, I would say that apikorsus is worse. |
Fact? People go off and come back but when a family is torn apart by an affair it is extraordinarily painful. It is in fact excruciating. The pain I feel is not only my own but that of my children who are innocent in all of this. I respectfully disagree. An affair is at least as bad, if not worse. |
I agree with MommyZ. You can't call your opinion a fact simply because you are suffering as a result of something and it therefore feels worse. I don't mean to trivialize your pain, but unless your husband also cheated on you then you aren't qualified to state facts. I didn't vote simply because I can see that having been cheated on by my husband prevents me from seeing the facts objectively. And as MommyZ wrote, the pain isn't mine alone but that of my innocent children also.
And as FS wrote, STD's aren't a simple matter. I have a close friend who suffered tremendously from a near bout with cervical cancer which she contracted after her husband so kindly passed the HPV virus along to her, and there is another woman I know of who died of aids. R"L.
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yksraya
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Tue, Feb 21 2012, 9:16 pm
chillul shabbos is a sin bein adam lemukom.
an affair is a sin bein adam lchavero as well as lemukom.
bein adam lchavero is worse.we see it at dor hamabil VS dor haflagah.
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amother
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Wed, Feb 22 2012, 12:46 am
Same amother that posted the word FACT. Ok, I understand that you cannot see it my way. Your husband is not an apikorus, right? Forget about the fact.
I have been in my situation for a couple of years and I am referring to real apikorsus. It is not about chillul shabbos that some other posters have mentioned. Having a husband that is a real apikorus cannot be fathomed unless you have been there. The emotional and spiritual upheaval that consumes the atmosphere in the home is destructive to kids. My great shalom bayis has fallen apart.
The only way I could say (and that is my opinion, not fact) that a secret affair is worse than secret apikorsus, is when you stick it out in the marriage and you repair the bad. For example, if my husband will come back completely, then I could easily forgive him for the past. However, if the case would have been an affair, and my spouse would end it for good, I probably would have been able to work on my relationship but the hurt would linger.
Either way, the woman is in hot water. Just wanted to give an example of the searing pain.
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ora_43
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Wed, Feb 22 2012, 2:24 am
Depressed wrote: | freidasima wrote: | So I guess no one here is afraid of STDs. |
FS you dont know by now that most of the maidelach here are so innocent they dont know what that is, or they arent comfortable talking about it |
Or they're not so innocent that they've never heard of ways to prevent the spread of STDs.
It could be an added issue - not only is he having an affair, he's not being taking health precautions - but it's not a given. People are answering based on the situation OP described, not that situation plus... whatever.
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freidasima
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Wed, Feb 22 2012, 10:37 am
Heath care professionals emphaize that every additional sekxual partner a woman has adds to her chances of contracting an STD. When one has only been with one man, one's frum husband, who married when he too was a virgin one doesn't take precautions for STDs on any level, the main prevention of which is the use of condoms but for HPV that too is not a preventative.
A husband having an affair doesn't necessarily use a condom with his mistress, in fact here in EY surveys have shown that few men use condoms at all, not for religious reasons but because "who wants to take a shower wearing a raincoat" syndrome. Which is why STDs are so prevalent unfortunately in the country, and particularly HPV which, as I wrote, is not prevented by use of condoms.
Therefore hearing the words "having an affair", as most health care professionals will tell you, first and foremost means for a woman chances of getting an STD. Very very common. Any woman facing such a story? That should be - again as health care professionals emphasize - one's first concern before anything else. To immediately go and get tested whether one remains with that husband, forgives him or asks for divorce.
As far as I know from having a husband practicing chillul shabbos there is very little chance of contracting an STD. Unless there is something I wasn't taught...
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amother
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Wed, Feb 22 2012, 11:00 am
Shabbos- between dh and God
Affair- between dh and myself
God is merciful. Me? Not so much. My dh should use foresight if he chooses an adversary.
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amother
Azure
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Wed, Jan 08 2014, 5:46 pm
Deleted.
Last edited by amother on Sun, Jan 31 2016, 2:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother
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Wed, Jan 08 2014, 5:55 pm
As many posters pointed out, they're intertwined. My ex husband always spoke about his doubts in religion etc but I didn't leave him until I learned he was cheating on me. For years.
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MommyZ
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Wed, Jan 08 2014, 5:59 pm
amother wrote: | As many posters pointed out, they're intertwined. My ex husband always spoke about his doubts in religion etc but I didn't leave him until I learned he was cheating on me. For years. |
My ex had an affair, and went completely otd after I left.
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