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Forum -> Parenting our children -> Toddlers

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Shopmiami49

Mon, Mar 12 2012, 12:48 pm

I have a little 3 year old girl in my playgroup who is DELICIOUS! She is very smart, very verbal, and quite mature in many areas. However, here are the issues that I have been seeing consistently throughout the year - from the beginning.

- VERY impulsive; She'll grab something away from somebody in order to put it away. She'll automatically smack someone if they do something she doesn't like, even if it's directed towards her.

- VERY intense; She gets HYSTERICAL over many little things. If she wants a toy and someone else has it, she has a complete meltdown within seconds and screams and cries until she is practically hyperventillating. I can't reason with her for at least 5-10 minutes.

- VERY physical; She is constantly hurting other children, which is mainly stemming from the two issues listed above. She is extremely strong and uses all her strength on the other kids. if she gets mad at one of them, she will pinch so hard that she is gritting her teeth and shaking out of the pressure she is exerting. It is very scary.

She always feels terrible after an episode (which happens about every 1/2 hour at least). She goes in the corner until she is ready to make nice, like all the other children. We have tried so many methods to help her in gan, giving her something to squeeze when she gets upset, using her words, etc. The problem is, she is smart enough to "chap" what to do - for some reason, she is uncapable of doing it at the time.

This is horrible for her self esteem - it is literally killing her in gan. She is so personable and has great leadership qualities, but the other kids are becoming more scared of her and more intolerant of her behavior towards them. My heart is aching so badly for her...poor child...

I have had her over for playdates, where the ratio of children is 1:1 or 1:2, and she is a different person. She is such an angel. She does get upset, but has a MUCH easier time controlling herself.

I spoke to her mother about this several times and suggested after a while taht maybe it's worthwhile to get it checked out to see if there is anything else that can be done. Together, her mother and I have tried so many ways to help her, but its just not enough. The problem? Her mother is convinced that this is normal behavior and that it's a passing stage. I know that it's not. All the behavior stated above can be considered "normal" up to a point. But the frequency and intensity of the incidents do not equal a very normal behavior to me. Her mother has a close relative who is a sepcial ed teacher and she was told that it was normal.

I feel like I have done all I possibly can to help this child and all that I possibly can to try to get her parents to have her evaluated. But I obviously can't push more than I have. My only concern is that maybe I am not presenting it correctly, or maybe there really is a "named" problem/disorder/behavior issue that this description belongs to. Her mother never sees her in a gan setting, and the few times that she did see her daughter attacking other children, she said that her daughter gets overwhelmed by crowds. My gan has 6 other children in it besides for her. Next year, she is registered for a gan with 30 children. I am so so so worried for her...

Shopmiami49

Mon, Mar 12 2012, 11:00 pm

bump

gila-rina

Mon, Mar 12 2012, 11:18 pm

is this gan just babysitting or the kids daven, and learn parsha, and do arts and crafts? Because if its the later you can do daily "middos/emotional maturity" time with the kids. Have them act out difficult situations and solutions to them. Hope that helps.

sped

Mon, Mar 12 2012, 11:51 pm

Could it be a sensory issue? If you can get her to go for an eval, you can pm me for some recommendations.
I am also a special ed teacher who works in special and reguar ganim and I agree, it does NOT sound okay. I assume that next year, in an iriyah gan, she will get kicked out or the mom otherwise pressured. But it is chaval to wait for that.
One thing that helped me with a simialr child was doing a lesson on a "gibor" - someone who controls himself. I woud try and catch him in such situationns BEFORE he had the chance to react, stop him and compliment him for being such a gibor and watching his hands/feet/mouth... It took a long time, but eventually, he would say "I am a gibor - I didn't hit..." This wa a first grader, but with a diagnosed emotional/behavioral disorder.
Hatzlacha

Shopmiami49

Tue, Mar 13 2012, 12:03 am

Thank you both for responding!

The first thing that came to mind was sensory. I have a substitute who subs pretty often for me and she is special ed teacher and she said the same thing. However, the mother was so opposed to that opinion that she gave me a book "The Out of Sync Child" to prove to me that her daughter has no symptoms of sensory. I read it thoroughly and she does display many symptoms, but in different areas, so she claims that since you can kind of self-diagnose someone through the checklist in the book, it doesn't add up to sensory for her daughter. Whatever.

I did try the "gibor" thing. We had a sticker chart and many times would work extra hard to catch her before she explodes. However, she explodes in literally a split second and it is so so so hard to catch it before she hurts someone. She is so proud of herself when she is able to hold herself back, but when she can't, she is devastated b/c she can't understand why she did that.

Gila-rina - what do mean by acting out situations? I often talk to her not "during the moment", and both jsut to her and during circle time about how we treat friends and why Hashem gave us friends. We often discuss what we can do to make our friends feel good and what things we do to our friends that make them sad. She TOTALLY gets it. She is very smart and mature in that area. It's just that when she is in the heat of the moment, she has zero control over her impulsive reactions.

5*Mom

Tue, Mar 13 2012, 12:27 am

You sound like a professional, intuitive, attentive ganenet and I think you described the situation quite well. I would highly, highly, highly recommend the book The Explosive Child, by Ross Greene which describes these difficulties in terms of skills deficits, explains how to identify the developmental pathways that need strengthening (parents and teachers can do this), and how to identify and avoid/solve the child's triggers. I have--well, HAD--a child like this. I also took her to a Speech-Language Therapist for one-on-one intervention and she has really learned the skills she needs to manage the day-to-day situations (social, emotional, sensory) that used to be so challenging for her. As an aside, she was in a small class last year--1st grade--and it was a disaster; she's in a class of 30+ this year and is thriving!

sped

Tue, Mar 13 2012, 2:42 am

WoW! you seem really tuned in and devoted. Would you mind pming me your details? I often look for gananot like you sem to be, to recomend to parents whose children need an especially tuned one.
Can you try not sending her to the corner, which is a sort of place for kids who did something wrong, and instead help her calm down somewhere else. It sounds like she is really not in control here, and consequaences won't help it not happen again...
I have a feeling that the mother does know that something is not okay, but is in denial. You can do only so much now. Daven that she gets the help she needs as soon as possible.
Lots of hatzlacha with all.

Shopmiami49

Tue, Mar 13 2012, 3:03 am

sped wrote:

sped, you're so sweet! I really appreciate that! Bli neder I will pm you my details.

I do send her to the corner when she actually hits, since that is the consequence for all the kids who hit, and also b/c that is what her parents do at home, so it's more consistent. But when she goes completely overboard and hysterical, then she has a special little room that she goes in to just chill with a book or toy until she feels calm enough to come out.

Shopmiami49

Tue, Mar 13 2012, 3:57 am

I also want to add that lately, I noticed two more things:

1) She has started to try and cover up for herself aka lying when she hurts someone. Most probably it is b/c she doesn't want to get in trouble for it...so sad Sad

2) She has been picking up crumbs from the floor and eating them and spitting them out - crackers, pretzels, whatever leftovers she finds. And I doubt she is hungry - she comes with a LOT of food to gan. She has a big breakfast at home and then comes with a whole wheat sandwich (2 pieces of bread), a yogurt, a cheese stick, a cucumber, and often pretzels or crackers. I feel like its a sensory thign - as if she is testing out the textures and spitting them out after. Sigh. I just don't know...

5*Mom

Tue, Mar 13 2012, 4:15 am

Shopmiami49 wrote:

You can help her with this by talking to her calmly without judgment and giving her a way to fix her mistake. For example you can say, "Look, Sara got hurt and I know you didn't want to hurt her. Let's ask her how you can make her feel better." Maybe bring her some ice, a chair to sit on, a snuggly teddy bear, a drink. This helps her learn that it is safe to take responsibility even after she has lost control (which she knows she has, but only after the fact, and she is probably genuinely sorry about the consequences to others) until she can gain the skills to stop herself before she loses control.

Shopmiami49 wrote:

This is also something you can help her with. Even a minimal amount of reading up on the subject should give you insight into how to help her meet her sensory needs in a more appropriate way, such as by giving her various textures things at regular intervals throughout the time that she is with you, preempting the need for her to seek them elsewhere. A varied sensory experience is developmentally beneficial to all children, so this might be something you could add to your program for all the children and she wouldn't feel singled out.

I'd also love to know who and where you are. I have met very few gananot/teachers who "get it" the way you seem to! Kol hakavod and lots of hatzlacha!!

Shopmiami49

Tue, Mar 13 2012, 5:46 am

5*Mom wrote:

Shopmiami49 wrote:

Shopmiami49 wrote:

Thanks! I really like your idea about helping her to steer away from lying and helping her to feel safe. I'm going to try that. About the sensory, we already do a lot of that - we play with play dogh, bubble wrap, fingerpaint/footpaint (yes, I know I'm crazy! Smile

), feather tickling, etc.

Her mother asked me today how she was in gan, and I told her the truth - I said that yesterday and today were more difficult than usual. She cut me off by saying "Oh, she's always a little bit difficult, that's just how she is." So I didn't elaborate.

However, they are going to the US next week for 2 months. I feel like I need to make a decision over here. My gan is not a healthy place for her the way things are right now - she just isn't thriving and is altogether unhappy. The other kids are not happy. I am starting to lose my patience internally and it's going to start showing soon. I feel like I have just given her my all and she needs more than what I have to offer and it's beginning to be very emotionally taxing. I have mixed feelings about their trip - on the one hand, I feel like it will be good for everyone to have a break from the situation; for her, for the kids, for me, for her parents. On the other hand, I am worried about what happens when she returns from gan. I am afraid that things will settle down while she is away and be more calm and then when she comes back, things will get very intense and super-charged. I'm not sure that the other kids will take to that upheaval very well...

I am seriously considering speaking to her mother one last time before she leaves and tell her something like this: "I really care very much about your daughter. However, she is just really not happy here right now. I strongly feel that it is not a healthy place for her while thigns are continuing in this way. I feel that I have done all that I can to help her, but things have been more or less at a standstill - not really much improvement. She could probably benefit from more than what I have to offerm but that is your perogative. I am concerned about what is going to happen while you are gone and when you come back. I think that the break will be good, but things will probably be less intense in gan while she is away. As it is, her behavior is not having a positive effect on the other kids in gan, and I am worried about bringing all that back after such a long break. This is not my first choice, but rather after a lot of thought, and I feel that it would be best for her and for the other kids as well, to see how it goes for a couple of weeks after she comes back to gan. it will give her time to get settled, over her jetlag, and back into routine. But if things pick up from where they left off, I think she will be much happier in a different place. I have to keep everyone's wellbeing in mind, so let's see how it goes when you get back. But I jsut do want to bring up the possiblity of having to ask you to pull her out of gan."

Ooooyyyyy I have never done this before! Is that too harsh? Is there anythign better I can say or do?

5*Mom

Tue, Mar 13 2012, 7:09 am

It seems that you have really invested yourself in this little girl but her parents are really not on board. If you are noticing a negative ripple effect on you and on the other children and the parents aren't willing to face it or address it professionally I do think you would be doing the right thing--and in the long run a kind thing for this little girl herself--to speak to them as you plan to and ask her to find another gan if necessary. Your devotion and sensitivity come across loud and clear and I don't think what you plan to say is too harsh at all. The parents need to hear it. It's a shame b/c these issues, while certainly challenging right now, are likely not even a diagnosable disorder and are relatively easy to remediate. Perhaps your speaking to them frankly will be the impetus they need to consult with a professional to help their daughter.

Shopmiami49

Tue, Mar 13 2012, 9:56 am

5*Mom wrote:

I really appreciate your reassurance on this. I just strongly feel that if I am going to make that move, I need to make them aware of the possibility before they leave.

Tue, Mar 13 2012, 10:10 am

You sound like a wonderful ganenet! No, not too harsh. Yes, speak to the parents plainly about your concerns, and make very clear what changes need to happen to keep the child in your group. Maybe it's different in Israel, but in my community in the US I would not tolerate (as a parent) a highly aggressive child in gan. Of course I feel for her, and as her teacher you certainly feel responsible for her well-being, but that doesn't mean putting all the other children at risk. If your other students are being hurt as you said in your first post, this girl cannot stay in the program.

Shopmiami49

Tue, Mar 13 2012, 11:59 am

Ok, I just got off the phone with the mother. I told her more less what I wrote above and I told her that I will give do all I can to give this a fair shot when they come back. Now all I can do is daven...

THanks again everyone for all your advice! Smile

Shopmiami49

Tue, Mar 13 2012, 1:46 pm

Weeeelllll....she jsut called me back and is not too happy.

She basically feels like I am kicking out her child b/c I can not deal with her. I told her that I am sorry she feels that way and I am sorry if I gave off that impression b/c it's not true. Yes, the situation is very fraught with emotion right now from all ends - her, the other children, myslef, and her mother.

Her mother thinks the break will be worse for her daughter and is saying that they are going to look for a gan that is more strict and disciplined b/c she thinks it will work better for her daughter. She said she knows that I disagree with her, but she is adamant that her daughter just needs time to mature and she will look for someone more experienced in dealing with children who are more emotional. That is fine with me, b/c she will probably be better off with someone more experienced in that area. I jsut feel really awful that is didn't go so well, although I know that it is not my fault. I feel like the mother is just brushing me off since I am not "officially" experienced (but I did expect that from her) and not really paying attention to her daughter's issue. She said that she works plenty with her at home and does play therapy and this and that therapy, but it's just going to be a long process. Oy very...

5*Mom

Tue, Mar 13 2012, 1:57 pm

Shopmiami49 wrote:

She said that she works plenty with her at home and does play therapy and this and that therapy, but it's just going to be a long process. Oy very...

Does this mean there are professional therapists involved with the child? Has the mother ever put you in touch with any of her therapists? Do you think it would help to speak to them and get guidance from them?

grin

Tue, Mar 13 2012, 2:11 pm

Shopmiami49 wrote:

in a sense, she's right - you are trying to get this child out of your gan because you aren't equipped to deal with her needs.

you may have to choose which is your priority here- staying on the mother's good side or getting the child the help she seems to need.

Shopmiami49

Tue, Mar 13 2012, 2:32 pm

5*Mom wrote:

Shopmiami49 wrote:

She said that she works plenty with her at home and does play therapy and this and that therapy, but it's just going to be a long process. Oy very...

No, she is not getting professional help. Her mother is getting guidance from her relative who works in special ed and doing things one on one with her. However, her mother seems to be in denial about what the issues actually are. She told me she is working on sharing and taking turns, etc. That is all very helpful and I am sure this little girl will benefit from this, but I don't think that the core of the issue is being addressed. She needs to be taught how to utilize the tools she has to deal with her emotions - she knows what to do, but she needs to learn how to relax herself a little in order to use them. She just tenses up and in a matter of seconds is in a full fledged meltdown or full fledged attack at someone else.

Grin, I am confident that I made the right decision by speaking to her mother. Stayign on her good side is not my priority right now, even though I am quite friendly with her outside of gan. I really really care about her daughter and getting her the help she needs. And I'm not kicking her out. I expressed to her mother very passionately that I am willing to do whatever I can to help her out in gan - there are only so many tools that I have, though. Her mother told me that she feels that I am just so frustrated with her daughter that I can't handle her anymore. I told her quite honestly that I am more frustrated with the situation as a whole - the way that it is affecting the other kids, the fact that I have tried everythign that I feel I have to offer, and the whole emotional situation in gan. I explained to her that whenever anyone is in an emotionally charged situation, it's a good idea to take a breather - which is why I feel like this 2 month break could be good for everyone - for her daughter, for the other kids, and for myself.

So in essence, no I am not kicking out her daughter out of my frustration towards her and not being able to handle her. I'm not even kicking her out. She is welcome back with open arms. But right now, she is not thriving here and nobody else is either. It's the whole picture that I am taking into account.

5*Mom

Tue, Mar 13 2012, 2:36 pm

Shopmiami49 wrote:

5*Mom wrote:

Shopmiami49 wrote:

She said that she works plenty with her at home and does play therapy and this and that therapy, but it's just going to be a long process. Oy very...

No, she is not getting professional help. Her mother is getting guidance from her relative who works in special ed and doing things one on one with her. ...

If that's the case I still agree with your decision and the way you are handling it.

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