Trying to forgive you for stealing my housekeeper

freidasima

Wed, Jun 05 2013, 8:20 am

My daughters all babysat as preteens and teenagers. There is one family with a number of kids whose mother paid TWICE the going rate. Why? Because she wanted a totally devoted, reliable babysitter who would always make other arrangements if she wasn't available so that there would be no "emergency". She had to be willing to totally occupy the kids with educational activities in the afternoon, they had no TV and she was supposed to feed them snacks and help them with homework and then play educational games with them, take them to the park, and supervise them well.

She demanded tremendous work and was willing to pay double for it. My youngest daughter became their top babysitter for a year and earned more than her sisters together. Did this woman break the neighborhood price? Actually she did, but she demanded a tremendous amount. Was the right to do so? Yes. Did all the other mothers feel she was doing something wrong? Maybe but it was her right and it didn't change anything because all the other mothers agreed that they didn't need that kind of service and weren't about to pay that much.

Hence if a housekeeper works for three women and each one demands something different, just because one very demanding one or very rich one or whatever pays more, it doesn't mean that the others have to. It takes solidarity but that seems to be lacking as well.

ElTam

Wed, Jun 05 2013, 7:17 pm

Quote:

This is interesting, but irrelevant to the discussion. In our scenario, these women DON'T pay taxes -- the employer is the one posting, so she knows. I have never heard of any cleaning lady who gets $10 -- $11 an hour having a legal working relationship with her employer.

Actually, she wouldn't know, necessarily. When I was a freelancer, I had some clients who I worked for less than others. The law is, under a certain $ amount, the company didn't have to issue me a 1090 or report it to the gov't. I still reported the income and paid taxes on it. Those clients have no idea whether I did or not.

Similarly, my babysitter may or may not declare my payments to her. I really don't know. That's her issue with the IRS. I come and use the services of her business and I write her a check, made out to her name. What she does after that is her option.

happybeingamom

Wed, Jun 05 2013, 10:38 pm

A house keeper with set hours and you are giving her the supplies is considered an employee.

Here are the IRS guidelines

http://www.irs.gov/publication......html

Do You Have a Household Employee?

You have a household employee if you hired someone to do household work and that worker is your employee. The worker is your employee if you can control not only what work is done, but how it is done. If the worker is your employee, it does not matter whether the work is full time or part time or that you hired the worker through an agency or from a list provided by an agency or association. It also does not matter whether you pay the worker on an hourly, daily, or weekly basis, or by the job.

Example.

You pay Betty Shore to babysit your child and do light housework 4 days a week in your home. Betty follows your specific instructions about household and child care duties. You provide the household equipment and supplies that Betty needs to do her work. Betty is your household employee.
Household work. Household work is work done in or around your home. Some examples of workers who do household work are:

Babysitters,

Caretakers,

House cleaning workers,

Domestic workers,

Drivers,

Health aides,

Housekeepers,

Maids,

Nannies,

Private nurses, and

Yard workers.

Workers who are not your employees. If only the worker can control how the work is done, the worker is not your employee but is self-employed. A self-employed worker usually provides his or her own tools and offers services to the general public in an independent business.

A worker who performs child care services for you in his or her home generally is not your employee.

If an agency provides the worker and controls what work is done and how it is done, the worker is not your employee.

Example.

You made an agreement with John Peters to care for your lawn. John runs a lawn care business and offers his services to the general public. He provides his own tools and supplies, and he hires and pays any helpers he needs. Neither John nor his helpers are your household employees.

m in Israel

Thu, Jun 06 2013, 5:10 am

ElTam wrote:

Quote:

Even if the independent contractor structure could apply, we are discussing ILLEGAL immigrants. They are not legally allowed to work here, and don't have their own social security number. Why would they file taxes under a fake ss number and attract attention to themselves?! The point of these studies is that many illegals work the type of job that the employers officially require them to be legal, so they provide fake ss numbers, and taxes are withheld by the employer (remember the many false ss cards discovered during the Rubashkin raid?) Since these people don't really exist the taxes paid are "unrequited" -- the illegals do not get any credit in the social security system, for example, for paying these taxes. Did you read your own quotes? Both of them discuss this concept. It makes no sense for an illegal cleaning lady to steal a ss number just for the purpose of paying taxes. She would only have a reason to do so if her employer would require it.

amother

Thu, Jun 06 2013, 5:21 am

m in Israel wrote:

ElTam wrote:

Quote:

Actually your analysis of the situation is incorrect. I have been in this situation with my housekeeper of 8 years (who I paid $10/hr, then $11) an illegal immigrant. She had a social security number (which I guess was illegally obtained) and she paid taxes and into SS and she was an official employee of my household and I paid payroll taxes for her (which I began to do one year in lieu of a raise.) She no longer works for me because we moved to another state, but I did this for her two years after she started working for me until we left.

The reason they do this is because they want citizenship and those who can show that they are working and paying into the system are looked upon more favorably by immigration than others who do not.

m in Israel

Thu, Jun 06 2013, 6:40 am

amother wrote:

m in Israel wrote:

ElTam wrote:

Quote:

Paying taxes under a fake social security number will not help her prove anything. Are you sure she was illegal? This sounds more like she was here legally, with a green card or something of the sort, which would allow her to get a social security number. Then she would be trying to "upgrade" and become a citizen. In that case, developing a work history would help. Currently there is not really any citizenship path for those who enter illegally except perhaps having a baby in the U.S. and then trying to use the child's automatic citizenship to establish your own legal residency. Proving that she was working here illegally would simply earn her automatic deportation under most circumstances.

amother

Thu, Jun 06 2013, 10:35 am

That might make sense.

I don't know what to tell you m in Israel but the situation you claim is "impossible" was exactly my situation. She definitely was illegal. I don't know if she was being scammed by her immigration attorney (are you an immigration attorney?) or she was just being hopeful, but I definitely had her SSN and she was registered with my state under her name and SSN, and she definitely wasn't a citizen. And she wasn't the lone person who did this.

I don't think the government is in that big of a hurry to deport people either. Especially tax payers. She's been in the country for almost 20 years now. And granted, she hasn't won citizenship, but she hasn't been deported either. And yes, her greatest hope was to find a citizen to marry.

m in Israel

Thu, Jun 06 2013, 10:55 am

amother wrote:

I didn't say anything was "impossible" -- just highly unlikely. In the crazy U.S. immigration system, anything is "possible". However, you seem to be confusing two terms. A person can be in the country legally without being a citizen! The choices aren't citizenship or deportations -- there are legal options in between the two. That was exactly my point. She may be a legal alien, here on a green card or some other type of work visa, and trying to work towards citizenship. If she had her own ssn and she was registered under her name (which is not what you said in your op -- there you said she used an illegally obtained ssn), then she must have either been legal at the time or as olive oil said had come legally and had her visa expire. Are you sure she was illegal, or only that she did not have citizenship? (I have a close relative who is an immigration attorney specializing in foreign workers, so I have a bit of knowledge in this area, but I am not an attorney myself, and as U.S. immigration laws are complex, it could be there were details in her case that made it not typical.)

Fox

Thu, Jun 06 2013, 11:12 am

amother wrote:

Quote:

Cleaning ladies have often shown a preference for working for me. It isn't always about $. It is about being nice, showing respect. My house never has a gigantic mess. I make my cleaning lady a nice big lunch and give her leftovers to take home. I ask about her kids. I give her my things I don't use anymore. Their husbands tell my husband no one ever treats their wives so nice. I don't treat them.any better or worse than I do any employee.

Thank you for saying this. I know people who whine and complain about how they can't keep a cleaning lady/their cleaning lady keeps quitting on them, etc... I really wish I had the guts to say, "It's because you treat them like garbage."

I couldn't agree more. Whether you are talking about a cleaning lady or a corporate VP, good employees are in demand -- and are thus more expensive than less effective employees.

If you find someone who does a good job and works well with you, it's quite likely that she would do a good job and work well with your neighbor. You will have to pay her and create working conditions that make the prospect of starting over with a new employer unappealing to her.