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-> Interesting Discussions
penguin
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Thu, Apr 14 2016, 12:28 pm
immorethanamother, that's pretty much what Mrs. Wein says. It's all because of the cheit of Adam that women have the weakness, which was physical and economical until recently. Though women's status is improving, it sounds from her that after Moshiach comes it will all be rectified. : )
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Fox
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Thu, Apr 14 2016, 12:41 pm
imorethanamother wrote: | The one and only shiur that makes sense to me about this topic is that - women are physically weaker, and thus mistreated all over the world. That doesn't mean we are less than, it means that we are raped and beaten and abused and mistreated and discriminated against more than men. And who wants that? Same reason why no one wants to be a slave. Hence the Bracha saying thanks. |
This is what I learned, as well. Years ago, I heard a shiur (can't remember by whom) in which the male speaker said, "In every era and every age, women's lives are almost always harder and less pleasant than men's." The bracha is the acknowledgement that men often have it easier.
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youngishbear
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Thu, Apr 14 2016, 12:48 pm
imorethanamother wrote: | I hear you, though I don't think most Jewish men feel that the women in their lives are second class.
The one and only shiur that makes sense to me about this topic is that - women are physically weaker, and thus mistreated all over the world. That doesn't mean we are less than, it means that we are raped and beaten and abused and mistreated and discriminated against more than men. And who wants that? Same reason why no one wants to be a slave. Hence the Bracha saying thanks.
But that's not God's intention. It's a whole complicated discussion about us and the moon and how the correct order of the world is to restore the lost light of the moon (us- women). Esther Wein has an excellent shiur on this on TorahAnytime. But the bottom line is - women and men should be treated equally, and that's what a utopia would look like. Our goal is to get there. |
Sounds like the thesis of "Arrow Circle Spiral", too.
How is it not "less than" to be raped and discriminated against?
What would it sound like if a white man says "thank God I'm not black because of all the discrimination they suffer"? Ahhh the uproar...
None of the answers explain why they couldn't simply say "thank you Hashem for making me a man" and for women to say "... for making me a woman".
I also can't help but think that at the end of the day, there are too many questions that need too many complex answers. Occam's razor rules that the simpler answer is the true one.
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Simple1
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Thu, Apr 14 2016, 1:24 pm
I'm not comfortable with the women suffer more explanation because it paints us as victims and is somewhat condescending. I prefer to assume that men have their fair share of challenges too.
I'm actually most comfortable accepting that the bracha was said in a different time anf culture, and that being in galus we can't make changes.
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amother
Blonde
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Thu, Apr 14 2016, 2:09 pm
My husband claims that learning Gemorah and everything else has really opened his eyes to how Judaism views women as first class people, to be respected and honored more than anything.
There are some things,including the Shelo Asani Isha that seem to place women as second class. We might not have the answers for these type of questions, but there are many more quotes in the Gemorah that praise women and to me that sort of drowns out the quotes or brochos that seem misogynistic.
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Ruchel
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Thu, Apr 14 2016, 2:13 pm
Those who resent won't accept answers. Those who don't resent don't necessarily look for answers. I personally don't care. I feel good in my life, so I don't worry abut understanding everything.
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Seas
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Thu, Apr 14 2016, 2:42 pm
amother wrote: | Great response from Henry.
Though the question still remains why the bracha breaks the pattern of most of the other brachos and must say, thank You for not making me a woman, rather than thank You for making me a man, or thank You for giving me so many mitzvos, etc. And why women don't say thank You for not making me a man, since women are more evolved (or corrected and on a higher spiritual plane than men. |
The reason for that is that Chazal teach us that it would have been better for humans not to have been born than to have been born*, so we can't very well thank Hashem for doing something which is to some measure detrimental. We can, however, thank Him for not creating us in a way whereby we have fewer mitzvos (I.e. opportunities with which to serve Him), or with a lower spiritual level. That's why we thank Hashem for not creating us as g0yim (no neshama or connection to Hahsem) or as slaves (mechuyav b'mitzvos but no neshama). Men add the bracha for not being created as women (who have fewer mitzvos).
*A basic explanation for that is there are 248 positive mitzvos and 365 prohibitions - meaning there are more chances for a person to do wrong than for them to do right.
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DrMom
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Thu, Apr 14 2016, 2:50 pm
Seas wrote: | The reason for that is that Chazal teach us that it would have been better for humans not to have been born than to have been born*, so we can't very well thank Hashem for doing something which is to some measure detrimental. We can, however, thank Him for not creating us in a way whereby we have fewer mitzvos (I.e. opportunities with which to serve Him), or with a lower spiritual level. That's why we thank Hashem for not creating us as g0yim (no neshama or connection to Hahsem) or as slaves (mechuyav b'mitzvos but no neshama). Men add the bracha for not being created as women (who have fewer mitzvos).
*A basic explanation for that is there are 248 positive mitzvos and 365 prohibitions - meaning there are more chances for a person to do wrong than for them to do right. |
Non-Jews and slaves have no neshamot? Huh?
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Seas
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Thu, Apr 14 2016, 2:54 pm
DrMom wrote: | Non-Jews and slaves have no neshamot? Huh? |
Short answer is no.
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Cookie Monster
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Thu, Apr 14 2016, 3:54 pm
Seas wrote: | Short answer is no. |
What happens when they become a Ger?
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Seas
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Thu, Apr 14 2016, 3:57 pm
Cookie Monster wrote: | What happens when they become a Ger? |
They get a neshama. A ger is considered like a newborn child.
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PinkFridge
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Thu, Apr 14 2016, 7:36 pm
Seas wrote: | Short answer is no. |
What does "Chavivin odom shenivrah b'tzelem" mean?
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mommy3b2c
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Thu, Apr 14 2016, 7:42 pm
Seas wrote: | Short answer is no. |
Ridiculous.
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Seas
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Thu, Apr 14 2016, 8:21 pm
PinkFridge wrote: | What does "Chavivin odom shenivrah b'tzelem" mean? |
What it doesn't mean is that g0yim have a neshama. They have other kinds of souls, but the one called neshama is the sole reserve of Jews.
Frankly I don't see the point in debating something that's universally accepted, from the rishonim to the achronim, from the chassidim to the misnagdim.
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PinkFridge
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Thu, Apr 14 2016, 9:06 pm
Seas wrote: | What it doesn't mean is that g0yim have a neshama. They have other kinds of souls, but the one called neshama is the sole reserve of Jews.
Frankly I don't see the point in debating something that's universally accepted, from the rishonim to the achronim, from the chassidim to the misnagdim. |
This clarification puts a different spin on things.
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bruriyah
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Thu, Apr 14 2016, 9:07 pm
Seas wrote: | The reason for that is that Chazal teach us that it would have been better for humans not to have been born than to have been born*, so we can't very well thank Hashem for doing something which is to some measure detrimental. We can, however, thank Him for not creating us in a way whereby we have fewer mitzvos (I.e. opportunities with which to serve Him), or with a lower spiritual level. That's why we thank Hashem for not creating us as g0yim (no neshama or connection to Hahsem) or as slaves (mechuyav b'mitzvos but no neshama). Men add the bracha for not being created as women (who have fewer mitzvos).
*A basic explanation for that is there are 248 positive mitzvos and 365 prohibitions - meaning there are more chances for a person to do wrong than for them to do right. |
Well, in the case, how can women say "sheosani k'rtzono"? We can't thank Hashem for making us because it is better if we were not made to begin with.
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Seas
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Thu, Apr 14 2016, 9:13 pm
bruriyah wrote: | Well, in the case, how can women say "sheosani k'rtzono"? We can't thank Hashem for making us because it is better if we were not made to begin with. |
Good question. I'll ask my DH and try to get an answer.
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Seas
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Sun, Apr 17 2016, 10:17 am
bruriyah wrote: | Well, in the case, how can women say "sheosani k'rtzono"? We can't thank Hashem for making us because it is better if we were not made to begin with. |
My DH went over the whole topic with me on Shabbos and there are quite a few interesting explanations why the three brachos are said in a negative way (Who didn't make me...). Bln if I have time I'll write it up.
The simple answer to your question is because there's no other way of saying it. After thanking Hashem for the good He did to us by not creating us as g0yim or slaves, we praise Him for making us the way He wanted. In other words it's more of praising Hashem for being Omnipotent even though we might not have received exactly what we'd have liked (similar to r"l the bracha of Dayan Haemes).
Also, the explanation most meforshim give for the thanks is that we thank Hashem for giving us the opportunity to do as many mitzvos as possible. Hence we thank Him for not creating us as g0yim who have no mitzvos, nor as slaves who, despite being mechuyav with all the mitzvos women are, are on a lower spiritual level. Men also thank Hashem for not being created as women who are not mechuyav in certain mitzvos (lulav, sukkah, etc.).
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DrMom
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Sun, Apr 17 2016, 10:25 am
Seas wrote: | What it doesn't mean is that g0yim have a neshama. They have other kinds of souls, but the one called neshama is the sole reserve of Jews.
Frankly I don't see the point in debating something that's universally accepted, from the rishonim to the achronim, from the chassidim to the misnagdim. |
This is not a "universally accepted" truth at all. It sounds like you are in the habit of dismissing as non-existent anyone who holds an opinion which differs from what you have been taught.
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Seas
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Sun, Apr 17 2016, 10:49 am
DrMom wrote: | This is not a "universally accepted" truth at all. It sounds like you are in the habit of dismissing as non-existent anyone who holds an opinion which differs from what you have been taught. |
Please quote even one classic source that says g0yim have neshamos.
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