DS frummer than family and causing issues

amother

cornflower

Tue, Aug 18 2020, 8:05 am

keym wrote:

I consider this very 14.
Similar to a 14 yr old girl lecturing the family on proper clean up or deciding she knows better than the parents how to parent.
I do recommend ruling out religious OCD and making sure that his Rebbeim and friends are reasonable. If his Rebbi gives blistering shiurim on how Harry Potter is the source of all the evil in the world, of course he'll freak out if his brother is reading Harry Potter.
But other than that, nonconfrontational tone. We need to talk respectfully.
Dad's davening is between Dad and Hashem.
Mom and Dad decide what hechsherim we eat, books we read, clothing we wear. You are welcome to choose differently for yourself but not for others.

Also, don't engage and don't fight. If he only wants to eat a specific hechsher and you fight it, he'll just double down and become even more stubborn.

This, exactly. Don't engage, don't try to argue. Just remind him (if needed) that he needs to speak respectfully.

I know people who grew up in more MO families who wanted to be more RW from a young age, as well as vice versa. I honestly believe it's a matter of personality. Some people like the self discipline of living under strict guidelines, some chafe under it. Most of these people ended up staying their chosen path as they grew up and married. I guess at some point their parents made peace with it, and they mellowed out as well.

amother

Tue, Aug 18 2020, 3:28 pm

Wow, thanks so much to everyone for the helpful advice!

First of all, DH and/or I have spoken to his rebbeim in the past and he has as well. They’ve been helpful to some extent but it doesn’t ... stick.

Honestly though, I’m feeling like an idiot right now because I totally should have thought of it being anxiety related.

Basically, DS was diagnosed (by me, but the psychiatrist I brought him to agreed) with mild religious scrupulosity about 4-5 years ago. He had all the stereotypical manifestations (taking forever to daven because he has to get each word right, rewashing his hands multiple times to be sure they were tahor, asking “shailos” non stop on every single little thing that typical 9-10 year olds don’t think about...) I took him to someone who specializes in religious OCD in kids and he saw him 3-4 times and that was it (he told me anxiety is never cured, always managed but it did not persist past those 3-4 months).

I was soooooo on edge for the first couple of years, on the lookout for its resurgence (paying attention to how long he davened etc) but he really seemed okay (and still does in that respect).

So... totally should’ve thought of the anxiety angle but I didn’t. Now that I’m realizing it’s probably anxiety, what do I do? He definitely doesn’t recognize it as anxiety (he DID realize the religious scrupulosity he had wasn’t normal), he just thinks he has a very hard life that he was stuck in this family of barely frum people (we’re all bH totally frum).

How do I make him realize that it’s ... not us, it’s him (and his anxiety)?

Thank you!

amother

Cerulean

Tue, Aug 18 2020, 3:29 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

DS has always been a little ... intense and as he grows up (he’s 14) he just moves more and more to the right and gets madder and madder at the rest of the family (for staying in the same place).

It causes a lot of friction in the family as he will make insulting and judgmental comments about the rest of the family... he feels that we’re all going straight to h*ll and that he’s “mechuyav” to give us mussar all day... it also makes HIM miserable (as it embarrasses, as well as causes him intense emotional pain to be family with such sinners...)

He tends to be very black and white (as I guess many teenagers are) but I’m pulling out my hair from him some times.

Some examples (of things that make him really upset but that the rest of the family is not willing to change) would be reading secular books (ie Harry Potter) and newspapers, his father occasionally not davening with a minyan (why is this his business?!!?), younger siblings not being as makpid on Halacha as they will be at an older age (his parents place to decide, not his) not singing enough zemiros at the shabbos table, siblings having atypically yeshivish interests (ie survival skills or animals or luxury cars), not having “enough” emunas chachamim... the list is endless, just trying to give you an idea of the things he finds so offensive.

Any good advice on how to deal with this in a way that will make both him as well as his siblings and parents happy?

Does he actually say that he thinks you’re all going to h$ll? Or are you just saying that’s his attitude.
Quite honestly, he should never be allowed to speak that way to you or the family. But as far as the other religious issues he’d like to see happening in the home, I can’t disagree with him. Speak to a rov.

amother

Tue, Aug 18 2020, 3:45 pm

amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:

I’m so glad you don’t disagree with him but I’m the parent and I’m an adult and if I think it’s okay for my other children to read Harry Potter, or if I want to read the Wall Street Journal, that’s really my prerogative.

I’m always super careful to have foods with the hechsherim he eats, I am super respectful and accommodating of his chumras. I don’t impose anything on him but don’t appreciate him imposing his standards on me.

I can’t imagine you’d tell me to relax my standards if I had a child who was becoming less frum, why do I have to change my standards for him? Also, there are other children in the house (who are all aligned with the rest of the family), why should his standards be imposed on them?

amother

Bronze

Tue, Aug 18 2020, 5:35 pm

You know dear son, we love u very much. You wouldnt be the first man in the world who lived and grew up in a family that he became much more religious than or even a adam gadol or a tzaddik hador. But the onus between us and Hashem is a personal journey we are not meant to impose on others, but grow through in our own way at our own pace. We are only responsible for ourselves and iyh one day you will teach your children how you will at your level. We are so proud of your growth in torah & mitzvos. I want to point out one thing to you. Bein adam lechavero is just as important. Kibud av vaem is also important. So is shalom bayis. We will support you in what path you choose to take. I would like you to look into when you are forbidden to give mussar and certainly it is not allowed to parents. I would like you to know you may request things respectfully that we can provide for you but you must let go. You do not control other peoples in this family's journeys in life. You need to let go, it is not something to control nor demand. I know you love us and want the best but this is not okay nor the way to be. Even according to the torah. Tell him the story of how hashem ignored idol worship in navi because of our achdus. Tell him your homes peace is very important, and you need him to focus on himself, you will support his personal needs and allow everyone else their space for their own journeys.

amother

Aquamarine

Tue, Aug 18 2020, 6:10 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I was like this (I am in my 20s now). Not sure I was that intense though. As I got older and matured, I realized I cannot change them (there is dysfunction as well) and I have to be the best me. Maybe explain to him that you are very happy that he is choosing the path he is (even if not true) and he is welcome to follow that path, however as long as he is living under your roof he cannot criticize or put anyone in the family down for the derech that they are on.

amother

Tue, Aug 18 2020, 7:16 pm

amother [ Indigo ] wrote:

So you've been down this road before. I'm sorry.

Saying that he has to go back for help because he's being religiously obnoxious won't help. Perhaps just say, you seem a little anxious again lately, let's see someone to talk about it.

He may welcome the relief.

Just because his anxiety manifests in religious terms doesn't mean that it's a religious problem per se. This one's for a psychiatrist, not a rabbi.

I don’t think he’ll buy it. He won’t see the connection between the way his perceptions and actions and anxiety. He feels extremely ... entitled to these opinions, or self righteous for having them. It doesn’t help that the yeshiva world he lives in reinforces many of these beliefs and rigidity.

Last time was really easy to get him to come-it was clear that something was “off” and he didn’t make a fuss (and he cooperated with treatment and it was all resolved within a few sessions). I don’t know that he will agree to see a therapist over this, or that the therapist will be able to help him change in any way.

😢

amother

Lime

Wed, Aug 19 2020, 4:14 am

Lots of good advice here.

While good you are aware of this piece I would not advise trying to make him understand that this may have to do with "anxiety". It does not work and he could retrench or otherwise react in the opposite direction you want and even feel more anxious.

Use it as a teachable moment and strengthen your relationships. Inculcate validation and mutual respect. Teens often "rebel" as someone said B"H at least in this direction. Parenting teens means helping channel their strengths in the right direction while tactfully behind the scenes strengthening their weaker areas.

While challenging situation show that you are tolerant and supportive of his choices while confident in your own. This is key in the development of parental relationship with teens.
Is he your oldest? Look at it as part of individuation developmental stage. Take the religious piece out of it and look at it as if he were doing this on anything which one may see such as parenting and other lifestyle choices. This can take the emotional piece out of it more and leave you to more calm, loving, and logical decisions of how best to deal.

Would not pathalogize this or anything else particularly at this sensitive age and stage unless seriously disrupting someone's daily functioning R"L. Show and model that in your family everyone within reason can choose their values and way while being an achdus loving family. No one needs to conform or disavow their own thinking and development.

Continue to strengthen his relationship with healthy mentors he connects with who will reinforce kibud av v aim and how to productively mature.

Much nachas health and happiness!

amother

Copper

Wed, Aug 19 2020, 4:19 am

The best thing for any child who is very black and white and very very stark in their frumkeit is to have a rav or mentor that they can look up to. I know it's not easy and it can take many years until they can find the one they click with and can respect. But this is essential that they have someone to turn to and who can explain to them when things are chumra and how they have to respect and accept everyone.
My cousin (who is like a brother to me because we grew up together) was very black and white as he grew up. Over time he has mellowed. He was in a good yeshiva that supported him and he found a rav to look up to. He is now a great husband and father. He is still more strict than most of us but he has found his path and can respect ours.
Hatzlacha.

sushilover

Wed, Aug 19 2020, 5:55 am

1. Try to get him to go to that therapist to speak about his anxiety. He won't go if you tell him his behavior is abnormal, because he's 14 and he will never believe he's in the wrong. Instead, talk about the intensity of his feelings, and how a therapists can help him get them under control. And that's the truth. If he is consumed by anxiety over your husband's future in the World to Come, how can he ever control his fears enough to speak respectfully?

2. If he won't go to a therapist, then you should go to learn how to communicate and empathize with him. He's obviously in a lot of pain.

3. Focus on respect, not his frumkeit. "In this house, we only give and we only accept respectful communication." If his brothers' dinner conversation bothers him, problem solve with this son to come up with mutually acceptable solutions. (See Ross Greene's method)
Even if you can't solve the problem, the problem solving process itself will help him feel understood and respected, which is already half the solution.

4. Super important: don't forget to have fun with him doing things HE enjoys. Help him develop healthy hobbies, spend a significant time every week schmoozing without mentioning or hinting at his behaviors or or anxiety.

Good luck! May this stage pass quickly and smoothly!

amother

Ruby

Wed, Aug 19 2020, 8:26 am

sushilover wrote:

This is an excellent post. I came here to post the bolded. In other types of situations, maybe we can tell our kids that when they have their own homes they can do things their way, as other posters suggested. Or remind them about kibud av. But that doesn't address what's driving the disrespect in the first place.

He loves his daddy and he's terrified imagining what happens to someone who doesn't go to minyan (in ds's 14 year old mind), or reads secular books or whatever it is.

OP I was very much like your ds. When I look back, yes there was lots of anxiety. What drove the religious OCD was the need to feel in control. Now I have some ideas as to why I might have felt so out of control to begin with, but the bottom line is I did not feel good about myself. It was kind of a cycle. I probably started the OCD because of self-hate, but then when I failed according to my own rigid expectations, like I thought I didn't have enough kavana davening even though I davened for hours, I berated myself and hated myself even more, thus prompting another cycle of even more stringent OCD. (Some similarities to the disordered thinking of eating disorders actually, which I also had.)

That's why Sushilover's suggestions about helping him feel understood and developing healthy hobbies are so important. You have to help him break out of that cycle and feel accepting of himself.