S/o $300k CLEANING HELP IS A LUXURY!

amother

Brickred

Sat, Jul 29 2023, 9:51 pm

amother OP wrote:

I am so ticked off by the recent threads.

Let me shout it from the rooftops: CLEANING HELP IS A LUXURY!

For SAHMs
For WAHMs
For WOHMs

It is a luxury.

It's okay for someone who is deeply in debt to let their help go. Some can afford to hire someone to do their dirty work for them, and some cannot. It's the way of the world.

You can argue that it is necessary for the working mom who is out most of the day, or for the exhausted mom with a large family who can't keep up with the housework, and yes, sometimes (maybe often) it should be given priority on the family budget over other discretionary expenses like expensive clothing, takeout and dry cleaning.

It's important.

It makes mom's life so much easier.

It keeps the household running smoothly.

But so do a lot of other things. Like takeout twice a week, daily outings with friends, luxury vacations whenever the desire to get away from the daily grind arises. But we all understand doing without these things if we can't afford it. So why is it different with cleaning help??

I just don't get people who say it's a need.

Who says a spotless house is a need? Who says it's ok to go into debt so you can go to sleep every night with an immaculate kitchen?

I work. I have a large family. Of course I'd love lots of cleaning help, but I understand that we just can't afford it right now. So we make it work somehow.

For all of you who can afford your help (even if it's a tight squeeze) and love having that help and wouldn't survive without it, I'm thrilled for you. Really.

But for all others, to just hire (expensive!) help as is so often advised on this site when you're already not making it through the month just to make your life easier? How is that okay?

Disclaimer: I am talking about the average mom here. I am NOT talking about anyone who falls under any of these or similar categories: Mom of a SN child who makes cleanup impossible. Mom who has executive functioning issues. Mom who is mentally or physically unwell. Mom who has an absent/dysfunctional husband and needs to play all his roles along with her own. Etc. I know cleaning help can save a home from falling apart under these circumstances, but I'm talking about an average, functioning home.

When did cleaning help become a NEED for every single mom, working or not?

I appreciate your disclaimer.
My husband refused so help at all. He is totally absent. If I ask for anything he tells me that “he told me to get a 24 hour help”, but he only makes 24k a year…. And I don’t need 24 hour help bh, but perhaps if he lent a hand I wouldn’t need cleaning help.
Just FYI others wouldn’t know what I go through. Whenever we go out anywhere he makes sure to help!

Bunch of Tulips

Sat, Jul 29 2023, 9:56 pm

Ema of 5 wrote:

Because you are not living my life and you are not living in my house, so you don’t get to decide what I need and what I don’t. I don’t understand this need to judge others. Everyone does things the way they do it. What difference does it make if I consider it a need and you consider it a luxury? Will it change your life at all if I change my mind and say it’s a luxury? What will it do for you?

It’s a luxury the way a washing machine is a luxury. Years ago people didn’t have that either.

newinbp

Sat, Jul 29 2023, 10:04 pm

honey36 wrote:

Sounds to me like the problem is when a women doesn't necessarily fall into one of the categories mentioned in the OP, so she trys to do everything herself and eventually ends up getting physically or mentally ill because of it.

So yeah, even when the women doesn't fall into one of those categories, I still don't think cleaning help is a luxury. It's a preventive measure for staying OUT of those categories.

I can't agree with this more. So much of what we as women do needs to be preventative, to stay on top of our game so we can be the best we can be. Then we can push extra hard like before Yom tov, before a simcha, which I'd equate to "finals week" in college where you pulled all nighters and drank too much coffee but scored great test scores and after that week was over you could recuperate and go back to normal.

Living life always on "finals week" isn't attainable. it's all of our (very hard) jobs to look at our own unique lives and figure out how we can bezrat Hashem make things better and more sustainable for ourselves and for our families, for some that may mean cleaning help, others other things, etc.

amother

Sunflower

Sat, Jul 29 2023, 10:10 pm

amother OP wrote:

I think you manage without it so you think everyone can
Your post comes across very judgemental

amother

Lightcyan

Sat, Jul 29 2023, 10:17 pm

amother OP wrote:

How do you choose which categories are disclaimers and which are not??
Every women chooses that for herself and every woman has a good reason for n ending her cleaning help.
Maybe a home is functioning because of the help.

amother

Eggshell

Sat, Jul 29 2023, 11:39 pm

Yes. It's a luxury. It may be a luxury you like very much and prioritize, but you would not die without it. It is not the same as food and shelter.

I have special needs children. I have executive function issues myself. And I do not have cleaning help, because it is not in my budget.

Over and over in cleaning threads on this site, I see women defending it as a need, always giving reasons. In non-frum circles I don't see this. And in response to that, I get told that frum needs are different. I'm not so sure. I think there are a lot of communal expectations. I can tell you this, I don't see as much help in my smaller community where we don't have a large supply of inexpensive help.

amother

Honeysuckle

Sun, Jul 30 2023, 12:02 am

genevieve96 wrote:

Can you define a need? Is having fleishig for supper a need? We can totally live on rice and beans. Is a car a need? There’s bikes and walking. Is owning a house a need? My parents are still renting.

Absolutely not. Married almost 30 years and never had more than 1 weeknight meal that was fleishig. Not because we couldnt afford but because it's not necessary. I don't believe in killing animals for the heck of it and it's not necessary to have fleishig constantly. Together with Shabbos, that is 3 times a week. That is plenty.
And the alternative to fleishig is not rice and beans. There are plenty of other options (and I'm not talking about fresh fish.)

amother

Alyssum

Sun, Jul 30 2023, 12:17 am

I didn't read most of this thread. Cleaning help wouldn't be seen as a need and defended as such on this thread if people lived in normal sized homes. I can clean my 1700 Sq ft home by myself. No way I'd be able to maintain a 5000 Sq ft home alone. It's all boils down to the insane things going on in our collective community that people will defend as necessary and normal. It's not normal if you can't afford it (spoiler alert: if you're going into debt paying for it, you can't afford it).

Ema of 5

Sun, Jul 30 2023, 12:18 am

amother Eggshell wrote:

Again, a need is not only defined as something without which one will die. If x will not function if y is missing, then y becomes a need.
Good for you that you are managing without. Does that mean that others have to also?
Why is someone calling it a need so hard for women here to fargin? How does it affect you if someone else calls it a need? (I’ve asked this question multiple times on multiple threads, and have yet to receive any answer.)

Ema of 5

Sun, Jul 30 2023, 12:22 am

amother Alyssum wrote:

It boils down to those seeing it as a luxury not being able to allow OTHER WOMEN to decide what is a need for them. My house is not huge, but I wasn’t even able to maintain my tiny apartment. It’s not about house size, or family size, or the size of anything else. It’s about women not being allowed to decide for themselves what is a need and what is a luxury. If someone says for her it is a need, who are you to say otherwise, unless you are living in her house and see what is going on?

amother

Zinnia

Sun, Jul 30 2023, 1:23 am

amother Eggshell wrote:

Frum needs are different because we have much larger families, many of us work in order to pay tuition and to supplement the family income, and because we prioritize our mental and physical health.

That said, I do agree that in many circles it is a bit overdone (20 hours a week is definitely not a NEED, even if you have all of the above). Mostly people have so many hours to maintain picture perfect homes at all times and that's definitely not a need.

ETA: Or maybe it's because we're smarter. Jews are smarter, we have better ideas.

amother

Catmint

Sun, Jul 30 2023, 1:26 am

amother Eggshell wrote:

When the price of eggs skyrocketed, a lot of people stopped using eggs, which I'd also classify as more of a "need" than a want. (Using need generously here to include all things which are not entirely discretionary for a functioning home, not only things absolutely required for survival.)

amother

Salmon

Sun, Jul 30 2023, 1:43 am

I want to show you the other side of the coin-
We are in debt, we have less than most of you materialistically. Yet, I prioritize having cleaning help, and consider it a necessity rather then a luxury.
Here's why:
My Dh is a good person, yet cannot handle when our house is not in order. He would hold me accountable why the house is a mess.
I too have a hard time functioning when the house isn't tidy. I would spend all my energy cleaning many hours, instead of spending time with my kids (or be too exhausted to deal with them, or to do the other basic household needs).
When I don't have cleaning help, I (lose myself and scream), force my kids to help more (they help out alot as is). I lose my sanity (I'm a perfectionist by nature). I become a nervous wreck (against my realization).
Taking in adequate cleaning help, is a necessity for our family, otherwise everyone suffers.
Erev pesach I took in more help as I was pgnt and was physically weak.
My DH and kids mentioned that 'It was the most calm erev pesach ever.
Also, if I decide that I don't need the cleaning Lady steady and that I can manage to clean on my own, when I really feel desperate, I won't have anyone available. If I cancel a cleaning lady here and there, she will leave me.
For us, cleaning help is crucial for my sanity and for our sholem bayis, and so that I can focus on the kids and more important tasks in my daily life.

amother

Sun, Jul 30 2023, 1:56 am

Ema of 5 wrote:

Again, you don’t live my life, and I don’t live yours. Who are you to tell me what is a need and what is a luxury in my own life? If someone says it’s a need for them, why do you care? How does it affect you? Would your life be different if I changed my mind and said it’s a luxury?

I could care less what you (and everyone else here) does at home.

Like I said several times since starting this thread, the problem is that Imamotherland has decided that this need is for everyone, and if a poster so much as dares mention that a financially struggling amother cut back on her cleaning help or drop it completely, it's as if she just suggested a move to outer space.

That's the issue. Deciding that it MUST be a need for everyone. And being loud and vocal about it.

You do yours. That's all fine and good. But don't come on here and tell everyone else it's a need. (Not directing this at you specifically, you just asked the question so I'm answering it here.)

Ema of 5

Sun, Jul 30 2023, 7:14 am

amother OP wrote:

I do t see that at all, especially on all these recent threads. The ones I see being insistent are the ones who insist it is a luxury for everyone. I don’t see anyone saying it’s a need for everyone.

amother

Cerise

Sun, Jul 30 2023, 8:07 am

amother Alyssum wrote:

I

Good for you. I have a 1300 sq ft home. I could clean it on my own but it would require me to stay up late at night doing it, take a lot of energy from me and leave me feeling very resentful. And yes most of my marriage I have been my own cleaning lady and I don’t have one now either. 1300 sw ft is still 3 bathrooms 4 bedrooms living room dining room kitchen and playroom. Not small in my opinion

amother

DarkKhaki

Sun, Jul 30 2023, 8:19 am

If you prioritize not going into debt then if you can't afford it, you won't have cleaning help. I'd you prioritize a clean house, you'll have even if you go into debt for it. This whole chain is insane. Everyone is coming from different places and lives. I had a cleaning lady growing up and had as soon as I got married living in a teensy 3 room apartment. I don't like cleaning so I had a cleaning lady. I live way below my means and a cleaning lady is very neccesary for me cuz I don't like cleaning but want to have a clean house and idc if it's a luxury or not. I also have many outfits, dresses etc and multiple pairs of shoes as I hope everyone else does. That's a luxury compared to different times/places. Who cares if it's a luxury?
I also think sending to private school is a neccesary luxury. And eating anything more than noodles for dinner is a luxury compared to some people/places. Why is everyone so bent out of shape about this?

gold2

Sun, Jul 30 2023, 2:20 pm

nechamala wrote:

Reberzin Braunsteim used to say it’s a need. Better to serve tuna every night in order to pay for it I believe was how she put it.

I believe she said that if she could redo some things about her own life it would be to to save money on food and get more help . I'm not sure that she told everyone to do the same.

You've got to use it as a mashal to see where you need help in your own life

In any event to the op of this thread, why do you care if people see it as a need? Everyone on here is hopefully a responsible adult and can make their own choices.

Ema of 5

Sun, Jul 30 2023, 2:30 pm

amother DarkKhaki wrote:

I don’t know anyone who has gone into debt so they can have cleaning help. The people I know who can’t afford it don’t have. No one I know has a dirty house, although some have a messy (aka lived in) house. Someone on one of these threads mentioned credit cards. How does one pay a cleaning lady with a credit card?
My issue with these threads is why do others care if someone calls it a need or a luxury? No one has actually given a real answer.